GPs leaving the UK

[Traveller3367]

DP is a HCP with lots of doctor friends.
In less than 2 years, 6 GPs have left the UK to work abroad (or are imminently leaving).
I read in the papers that 1 GP can care for upto 2000 patients so that's 12000 patients who have lost out.
AIBU to think there must be something about job that's driving them away?
The papers make it out to be easy and well paid but clearly not easy/well paid enough for some to stay and do it!
How can we keep our GPs in the UK to help us?

These GPs are ripping off the taxpayer. Training at the expense of UK taxpayer and then leaving to make big salaries abroad. As if surgeons and consultants working privately wasn’t bad enough. The NHS is a gravy train. It no longer exists for the people that pay for it.

@sst1234

These GPs are ripping off the taxpayer. Training at the expense of UK taxpayer and then leaving to make big salaries abroad. As if surgeons and consultants working privately wasn’t bad enough. The NHS is a gravy train. It no longer exists for the people that pay for it.

Don't worry about it - the amount of NHS staff we recruit whose training was paid for by other countries - often much poorer countries - would outstrip this many times over.

I am truly past caring. Really. I don't care. I am so tired of the endless whinging.

They should have to sign a minimum of five year NHS contracts if they are undertaking tax payer funded training.

@LaurieFairyCake

GP's are well paid

I have a friend who works 3 days a week and takes home £106k.

That is a good salary to me. She doesn't complain at all about it.

And my GP drives a Maserati, not that you can ever get an appointment with him !. And as an HCP myself, we are all under pressure !.

@Fairylights25

They should have to sign a minimum of five year NHS contracts if they are undertaking tax payer funded training.

The ones leaving the country would have been in GP practise for years in order to get the experience for these overseas jobs.

However, all your proposal would do is build resentment and guarantee even more would leave, you cannot force people to live in a country just because you cannot be bothered to fund the NHS properly.

How about making working conditions more attractive for GPs instead of attacking them?

Its not just GPs though, its dentists, vets, anyone with highly transferable skills... we voted to isolate the UK, so why the shock horror?

Its not just GPs though, its dentists, vets, anyone with highly transferable skills... we voted to isolate the UK, so why the shock horror?

No we didn’t and GP’s aren’t going to work in the EU, they are going to Canada, Australia, NewZealand and the US. Plus an awful lot of GP’s have come from overseas to work here !.

There are no new cars in the car park of our local GP practice, just run of the mill fords, VW's etc 2 or 3 years old.....can get appointments via phone and video and will get a F2F appointment even during LD's if they or you want one.

They ve all been brilliant throughout the Pandemic.

Our local woodburner installer has a Maserati... which can easily be bought 2nd H for less than a new EV.

@Pyewackect

Its not just GPs though, its dentists, vets, anyone with highly transferable skills... we voted to isolate the UK, so why the shock horror?

No we didn’t and GP’s aren’t going to work in the EU, they are going to Canada, Australia, NewZealand and the US. Plus an awful lot of GP’s have come from overseas to work here !.

Nope, our Polish Dentists closed up shop and went back home, plenty of EU HCP inc Doctors have gone back.

The situation with Vets is also well documented.

My DD works as a AHP, they have lost several EU staff, from consultants to nurses - we have chosen to cut ourselves off.

Its a disgrace the UK has taken healthcare staff from developing countries isn't it? or is that all ok? but not for UK HCPs to leave the UK?

Octavia my feelings are that they are moaning whingebags. We all work hard, we are all knackered. So what? The GPs are on excellent salaries and at least have their weekends apart from the odd slot on out of hours, the doctors I truly feel for are the ones in A&E!

Most of the GPs we know have many hobbies, full social lives and PLENTY of holidays! They are forever demanding more and it is tiresome. All the while refusing to see patients in person and overloading the local hospitals.

I have lived overseas for many years, it truly is not the promised land and they may find the adjustment and the differences much more of a challenge than they think.

I was listening to a programme about current work experiences for paramedics in the UK. Conditions are often intolerable for them. No doubt the same is true of conditions for nurses and doctors.
More teachers are leaving teaching during their first year in the job than ever before. There has always been huge pressure on teachers to work long hours and not take breaks etc so they can set up for their next class. No teacher or doctor or nurse can pop out to the loo on a whim.
I compare conditions for these key workers, including doctors, paramedics and nurses with the comfortable, relaxed practices for those civil servants, lawyers, management consultants, accountants etc, etc, etc who are now working from home and demanding late starts, lots of breaks to enable them to do school runs. How on earth does anybody think schools, hospitals, care homes will find staff in a few years time if these intolerable working conditions continue for front line staff?

Why shouldn't surgeons do private work? They arent allowed to do it in their NHS time and they arent paid for any extra hours they do in the nhs. Should nobody be allowed to do any paid work outside their regular job? I think this argument is a complete red herring wrt the state of the nhs.

Threads like this always seem to be mainly -

Doctors are greedy swines
Doctors are saints and put upon martyrs
Everything bad is due to Brexit

In reality this country is shit place to live and work for many unless you're Sir Bufton fucking Tufton so I don't blame doctors for going to Australia if they fancy it.

We need to make the job more attractive - but this government wants to sell off as much as it can. Pesky doctors still have a Trade Union and some small influence and the Tories have to destroy the power of all wages slaves to increase Sir Bufton's dividends.

@Fairylights25

Octavia my feelings are that they are moaning whingebags. We all work hard, we are all knackered. So what? The GPs are on excellent salaries and at least have their weekends apart from the odd slot on out of hours, the doctors I truly feel for are the ones in A&E!

Most of the GPs we know have many hobbies, full social lives and PLENTY of holidays! They are forever demanding more and it is tiresome. All the while refusing to see patients in person and overloading the local hospitals.

I have lived overseas for many years, it truly is not the promised land and they may find the adjustment and the differences much more of a challenge than they think.

Friends of mine went abroad (GP and Consultant) pre pandemic, they love it but agree, moving abroad isn't for everyone

Brian drain from the UK has been happening for years, we ve failed to train our own people and have relied on overseas HCP's no that seam of talent has dried up and we are struggling.

Why shouldn't a GP have hobbies? holidays? etc they trained for many years to get where they are.

Bottom line though is they are our first port of call for any illness we might have, its in our own interests to look after them.... personally, they ve all been brilliant over the pandemic, i really like the video consultations, they are longer and the ones i ve had have been 100%, been called in a couple of times and the GP certainly hasn't used it to avoid F2F.

Other countries pay more, it's as simple as that. GPs in this country earn a fortune in terms of average salaries, but other countries offer huge incentives to tempt them away.

The way I see it is we don't want doctors who are mercenaries just following the money. Doctors should take up that job because they want to HELP people, not just help the highest bidder. Good riddance.

@sst1234

These GPs are ripping off the taxpayer. Training at the expense of UK taxpayer and then leaving to make big salaries abroad. As if surgeons and consultants working privately wasn’t bad enough. The NHS is a gravy train. It no longer exists for the people that pay for it.

I’m not an uncritical cheerleader for the NHS, but this reads as though doctors can’t win: stay in the NHS and they’re getting fat from the gravy train without helping anyone, or work in the private sector and that’s even worse for reasons unspecified. Expecting doctors to work punishing hours for unrealistically low pay and be grateful because it’s a vocation is the reason we’re in this mess.

OP you only have to spend 5 minutes on MN to see why GPs are leaving. Everyone hates us. I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked but it’s still not enough. I’m leaving as soon as I can.

@HarrietsChariot

Other countries pay more, it's as simple as that. GPs in this country earn a fortune in terms of average salaries, but other countries offer huge incentives to tempt them away.

The way I see it is we don't want doctors who are mercenaries just following the money. Doctors should take up that job because they want to HELP people, not just help the highest bidder. Good riddance.

I work “part time” as a GP, which works out at about 45-50 hours a week. I’m curious - how much do you think I earn?

If it's so easy to become a GP and earn massive salaries for no work, why aren't all you people whinging about it going off to do it then?

Oh.

@Fairylights25

They should have to sign a minimum of five year NHS contracts if they are undertaking tax payer funded training.

It takes at least 5 years of working for the NHS as a qualified doctor before you can qualify as a GP.

They've already worked at least 5 years for the NHS by the time they have qualified as a GP

I think the GPs problem is quite clear. They need more of them.
I believe training have been encouraged and increased, so a larger lot of them should be in uni now. Fingers crossed this is going as planned, and there will be light at the end of the tunnel!
As understaffed, some GPs work lots, while some do not pull enough weight (see some comments from PPs)
Some many are in the profession because they do care, and want to help. Others just keep blaming their patients for wasting time, making up things, they implement horrible booking systems that make almost impossible to book an appointment, and they treat people like an inconvenience, then they are surprised that the patient is not that happy.
Those who cannot care from the bottom of their hearts and souls should not be working in the profession, because they are just making things worst for everyone, including their colleagues.
The GPs I see work the best are those who try to make bookings possible (on-line booking, call back system, longer slots on the phone queue- I had a GP that you could not get to phone ever because they had no waiting option added to their phone number!). Those get less complaints, happier patients, less issues. That will mean employing more receptionists, and nurses and if ever possible, more GPs. But, at least try! Instead of blaming the patients, day in, day out. I think patients treated like this suffer of burnt out too. I have been there and it is disgusting.

I thought Blair "solved" the GP crisis 20 years ago with his pay increases and letting them opt out of out of hours work by foregoing a tiny sum of their pay. Or are we now saying that Blair fouled it up back then???

@MushMonster

I think the GPs problem is quite clear. They need more of them.

Indeed, and it's a shame that the BMA refused to increase the numbers of medical school places back in 2008, and those extra students would now be fully qualified/experienced doctors today!

www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

The BMA claimed they wanted to avoid "overproduction of doctors" and "devaluing the profession". Or in other words, they wanted to keep numbers low for their own benefit!

No to mention the "complete ban on opening new medical schools".

All makes the BMA look a bit ridiculous now, doesn't it?

I don't blame them for leaving. They are in under immense pressure due to government policy and cuts. Their pay is not that much when compared to a professional of equivalent education and training eg senior lawyer.

Having worked with medics in the past, most of them are in the job as they really want to help people. Lots of them go to med school due to experiences of illness and loss in their family when they are young.