Can the “naughty” child get better?

[Twounderfive83]

I don’t think DS is the absolute “naughtiest” child in his class but I know he’s top 3.

He’s 5. He’s never violent or aggressive and apparently plays nicely in the play ground with his friends.

But in class, when it’s time to sit on the carpet, listen to the teacher, recite phonics on rote etc, he’s disruptive, messing round. He shouts silly words and phrases instead of what he’s meant to be saying with all the other children. He refuses to do as he’s told first time, like sit down nicely or put his coat on. He does it eventually, but rarely first time.

He’s clever; not a genius by any stretch, and his handwriting isn’t great. But he is definitely bright.

When I ask him why he does some of these things, he blames his friend (also “naughty”), says he can’t help it or says he’s bored.

The teacher doesn’t mention his behaviour to me day to day, but I dragged this information out of her after DS started telling me about the reward system they use.

Is this it now? Is he going to be like this through school? At home he can be very defiant, but we manage him by asking him about good and bad choices, and use consequences when necessary.

I’ve asked his teacher to give me a signal when he’s had a good/not so good day at pick up and I’ve told DS he can choose a magazine at the end of the week when he has made lots of good choices at school. But I don’t know how effective it’s going to be.

I worry he’s going to be a “naughty” boy all through school…

He is bored. I wouldn't worry too much, just have a word with his teacher about what they are doing to challenge him, as his is obviously not stretched enough.
My DS refused to engage with his class in Yr 1. He refused to sit in the classroom, refused to read the Biff and Chip books and would either disrupt by passing silly notes to his friend or get irrationally upset by the behaviour of other children. It turned out he was bored stiff, and like your son, not a genius, but too clever for what was being taught.

It doesn't sound particularly worrying in a 5yo. You are honestly never going to get anywhere with asking him why he does it - ime at that age they just don't know. They have an impulse and follow it, not for any reason.

If the teacher is not telling you about it regularly then I'd just leave it for school to handle because if you get involved it will be too far from the event for such a small child to make the link, and runs the risk of amplifying something and making him feel irrevocably naughty - which would set him on a negative path.

I would concentrate on raising/bolstering his self esteem at home. Look for things to praise him about and do so frequently and enthusiastically. Try to 'catch him' being good and remark on it, no matter how small the good action is.

You could also try playing some turn taking games and things at home in order for him to practice waiting and following rules in a fun way, in a safe environment.

I'll just apologise in case you do any/all of these things already.

I would also be quietly watchful in case he does have some SEN because IF (not saying he does) so the earlier they are recognised the better.

But overall - try not to worry. You have to make sure that you don't subconsciously mark him down as a naughty boy yourself.

I would let the teacher worry about his behaviour at school, you can't do anything while he is there and he won't be thinking about the end of week magazine when he's on the carpet messing about.

Instead at home I would practice the skills you want him to have at school. Read to him everyday so he gets used to sitting and listening. Play children's board type games with him so he gets used to concentrating, taking turns etc. Expect him to do things first time at home, 'ok can you put your coat on please, I'm going to count to three and it needs to be on by then.' Counting to three for some reason seems to have a magic effect on a lot of kids, worked for my son!

Listen to the raising good humans podcast, episode 13 (I think!). It's really insightful about how boys aren't really ready for school at age and struggle to follow the rules and expectations of the classroom. It can put them on the back foot and have them labelled as naughty when actually they just aren't ready.

I would just concentrate on his behaviour at home and let the teacher deal with behaviour at school (unless they specifically ask you for some help). It's probably ok to talk about behaving at school in general, but I wouldn't reward good behaviour or discipline/discuss bad behaviour at the end of the school day when the teacher has already dealt with it and , as far as the child is concerned, it's water under the bridge.

SEN is on my radar, he’s always been a child who doesn’t conform, he doesn’t want to do things because others are. My DH is like this, to an extent.

I don’t have much faith in his teacher. At all. I find her hard to read myself because her tone and face doesn’t change, whether she’s talking positively or negatively. She always just sounds a bit wishy washy. Her behaviour management includes counting down (which works, she said, but she expects him to do it first time, without the counting down) and threatening to call the headteacher. And the Sun/Cloud reward scheme. So I’m really worried he’s going to be set on a negative path already, so early on in his education.

You’ve basically described my ds, now year 4.
Also bored rigid throughout ks1. He could read when he started school, could do maths set for years way above, and was also big and strong for his age.
What he couldn’t do was sit still or manage his emotions.
It took a lot of support to get him assessed by an excellent teacher and me contacting camhs when he was excluded in year 2 for repeatedly ignoring the Head. The lockdowns actually also helped. They gave him time to develop emotionally and also removed him from the tedium of school. We don’t believe he has ADHD as such but presents in a very similar way. He needed support for emotions the way other kids need help reading, or with maths etc.
He’s not been in trouble at all this year and while he can get tetchy when tired or mildly unwell, he is a different child now. He was taught ways to cope and not constantly blamed or criticised.
Don’t call him naughty, whatever you do. Try to find what his triggers are. Ds cannot handle team sports or losing at all still but is allowed to work through his emotions around them such that he no longer lashes out.
You might like to have a look at Zones of Regulation - it’s a great framework to start working through emotional frustration. And don’t be scared to challenge school if they’re the ones labelling him. Frame it as wanting help and support rather than discipline, which on a smart child is often counterproductive.
It will improve but it might be rocky for a while yet. Good luck.

He’s only 5, I wouldn’t worry too much. It sounds like you’re doing what you need to do. My two older sons were very silly at 5 - I was forever being taken aside at pick up with their latest antics…but they grew out of it, more likely to get “a pleasure to teach” and “lovely, articulate young man” now. Don’t sweat it, he’ll probably be fine!

Could you work on the skills that underpin school?

Reading a story together with no distractions, playing a board game, baking, cooking, etc.

Try to extend his attention span when there are no screen or sound distractions. He needs to learn to concentrate and focus on one thing.

Just to add - I do a lot of the turn taking/board game type things with him. Lots of reading, he has always loved stories. I’ve started asking him to raise his hand instead of interrupting a story to ask a question (!) although it feels really formal. The countdowns etc work well at home, as well as leaving him with a task, saying I’m going to do xyz and I expect it to be done by the time I get back. Lots of those type of tactics work well with him, the issue is that schools expect/need all children to do it at once. This does surprise me as I would think it more like herding cats, but he seems to be one of a very small number who are a struggling with it in his class.

He’s not naughty. He’s bored. A good teacher will know this and know how the occupy him. If your teacher doesn’t, tell her to give him jobs to do at the times he is normally “naughty”.

Just enjoy him, he sounds great

Not all bad behavior Is boredom. In 20 years teaching this age in the same school I have seen children who were very difficult in infants struggle later in school and well behaved children excell. Of course the opposite can be true but it's simplistic to say a 5 year old is not putting his coat on because he is not being challenged. Lots of children like the attention negative or positive and some find it challenging to sit still and regulate their behavior . In my experience it is usually boys who find the classroom more difficult.
I actually think you are doing a great thing linking in with the school. It is reinforcing consequences for bad behavior because lets face it there is very little a teacher can do. You wouldn't give detention or shout at a 5 yr old.
Maybe instead of the signal a small communication diary. Literally a happy face or sad face or a short explanation from teacher. I would never mind doing this as it ultimately makes the classroom easier.

He sounds great until it is your child who struggles with phonics and they can't follow the disrupted lesson.

@switswoo81 I asked for a diary, school don’t do them. I have found it quite frustrating as I get very little, and the disruption was glossed over a bit at the 10 minutes parents’ evening we had. I only have found out the extent of the disruption because I accosted the teacher at drop off once! I completely understand that teachers have 30 children to receive/send out to their parents, but I think parents should be told about bad behaviour. But it seems as if it’s only REALLY bad behaviour that gets flagged like this? Violence etc.

@switswoo81 yes that does worry me, it’s one thing if he knows his phonics but not all kids do.

He’s ok when they go and sit at their tables to work, he knows that the quicker he gets the task done, the quicker he can do a chosen activity like Lego.

That's very poor..a diary is mutually beneficial . As I said it can be literally a smiley face stamp. I have known lots of tough kids to love the positive affirmations and a sad face has an explanation.
I agree with you also that communication is key. Speak to a parent if the behavior is disruptive and you can nip it in the bud together. Before it escalates and becomes a big thing.

To answer your original question however in my experience this low level silliness with parental support is usually grown out of.
And he's not naughty the behavior is just not suitable for the classroom environment.

@Cryingbutstilltrying ADHD is my first instinct to be honest when considering SEN. Have you ever had your DS assessed or has it not reached that point where you’ve felt it’s necessary?

I think my DS would do better for having more structured time at the tables to be honest, there seems to be an awful lot of carpet time this year. He liked reception, I suppose because it was so much play, although this type of behaviour did start after the winter lockdown, to a lesser degree. However his reception teacher was lovely and nurturing and wrote some gorgeous things in his report as well, so I felt like it wasn’t such a big deal at the time (although I wasn’t happy and tried to talk to DS about it). I know there’s a leap in expectation of behaviour between YR and Y1 too.