neighbours and roads

[1967buglet]

Hi
I live 1/4 mile down a rural track from a neighbour who moved in about 3 years ago. Legally, the track has to be maintained by each of us at an agricultural standard which has been; there is also a farmer who uses it seldom, so he won't contribute anything, and we don't blame him. Our neighbour renovated his place and there was constant construction up and down the track for 2.5 years, and this churned the track up. We paid him £300 for materials to get the road back to passable. In the interim, he has put in two holiday lets, and he now has a third party business in his outbuildings (probably not strictly adhering to planning permission, but we have let it go as they are quiet), and he has about 12 cars a day up and down the road. We have one car. He wrote us and asked if we would contribute £800 to get the road in better shape (I suspect his holiday guests were complaining, as it is not a regular road), we said OK, fine...the price then changed to £4000 as he said he underestimated, and then he got an even more expensive quote. This price would only fix from the entrance to the track to his place...our part of the road to our place would not be improved because it wasn't damaged. We asked how long this fix would last and is their any sort of guarantee by the firm doing it, no answer. So, we said, well, without a guarantee, that is too expensive, and we don't need the track to be so fancy and said we were happy to pay him £800 towards the track, but that had to be the end of it for a while. In the five years previous to when he moved in, we put about £100 to get some gravel, and it was perfectly fine with a regular car, and our part is in good shape. Are we jerks for not paying the £4000? I'm feeling like he churned it up, we paid to help fix it once so he could get his place done, and we'll contribute once more, but really, we've done our bit.

Yanbu. I’d be inclined to take periodic pictures of it and keep a note of the comings and goings so that you have them in case he tries to force you into making payments further down the line.

Yes, we thought about that. We do have some pictures of the track when we moved in which we showed him, and have been counting numbers of cars. Legally, it has to be of the standard so a tractor can get down it, and it clearly is. Thanks.

He wrecked it, he can pay for it.

Kind of what we thought too. If he damaged it, he can sort it out if he wants it better. We'll contribute for maintenance as is. Thanks @Cherrysoup.

Surely the cost should be split according to amount of use. So if he (or his customers / tenants) use it 12 x per day and you use it 2 x per day, then you should only pay 1/6 of the cost of repair. Have you seen the actual estimates or has he just told you the cost. Could you get an estimate yourself and compare.

I wouldn't even pay the £800 tbh

Sounds like as he is running a business he should pay more a greater portion as more wear and tear is from his activities than yours but I have now idea how legal that is. I would seek advice from a solicitor and draw up a formal agreement in responsibilities and costs.

If you’re satisfied the track is sufficiently well maintained to meet your legal obligations I agree you should just refuse to pay.

In case of future issues though:

Is it clear who owns the track?
(I am asking just to check who is responsible for enforcing any maintenance agreement). It might not be your or your neighbour’s call as to when the track needs repairs.

Who is responsible for maintaining it, just you and your neighbour?, or the farmer too?
If the latter, maintenance costs should be split three ways, assuming the farmer has an unlimited right to use it. S/he might not use it much now but could decide to diversify into agri tourism (pumpkin picking, glamping, maize maze etc) hugely increasing the level of traffic down the track creating increased wear and tear.

Who, if it's a specific person, has the legal responsibility to organise the repairs.
It the lane document saying agri use surface rather than current / existing surface?
I would suggest that you become more active in dealing with the upkeep because if he gains a financial benefit in upgrading this is something which will be an ongoing problem.
If the legal obligation is a load of stone and a digger and a couple of workers every 2-3 years to keep it accessable thats what should be priced. Anything over and above that is his responsibility.

@guessmyusername The legal paperwork says we each pay 3/8 and the farmer pays the remainder. The farmer has refused to pay, which I don't blame him, because the road is surely up to agricultural standard. The farmer can get his tractor and 4x4 down it no problem. The paperwork was created a very long time ago, when the expectation was it would be used as a agricultural track with little traffic, which it was, until our neighbour moved in. We get our saloon car down it just fine, and it is low to the ground. We have to drive more slowly, but we would anyhow, as there are sheep and sometimes cows in the field. I suspect our neighbour's business partners and his holiday guests don't like a road with some bumps, and he wants an impressive entrance to his place. @IslaInthesun, The £800 would go towards to a part which has been damaged with his construction, and we ourselves did have to put some gravel in it when we moved in; I don't mind the latter so much as it helps us too, and we did say we'll pay this if it solves the problem, so I don't want to go back on my word. @guessmyusername we did see the estimates. We both thought they were fairly high. Our neighbour first tried to get us to pay for an even more expensive road..about 10K contribution from us. When we said, no way, then he said £800, and we said fine, then it was £4000. All over the place. Either he doesn't really know, or he is testing how much money he can get, or something else is going on, not sure. I gave his kid a birthday present and he did come with him over to the house to thank me, so he's not a bad guy, but I did notice the road came up again immediately after. DH is amused by it, I'm probably more irritated and need to chill out.

We split the cost of sacks of hardcore between neighbours and then put it into holes etc. between us, working together. One neighbour also has heavy vehicles on the track, but the cost of the material isn't much so we don't mind, and neighbours are nice and helpful. That quote sounds excessive. Sounds more like they are using tarmac instead or something. Don't pay that amount!

When you've discussed the road with him, has he acknowledged that the 'need' for the expensive maintenance is due to the increased traffic as a result of his business? If not I'd point this out to him and reiterate the £800 you w offered should be more than enough as you've already paid towards his reinstatement costs after he churned it up and this is still higher than you'd had to pay previously when the track was only being used occasionally.

Seems to me the cf thinks you should be paying to subsidise his business!

To clarify, the legal agreement is clear--agri standard. It is load of stone and a digger and a couple of workers every few years. We did that before the neighbour moved in, as there was no one living next door. So, we all have a responsibility to organise repairs to keep it to that, and we told our neighbour that, and if he wanted better than that, he needed to pay for it. Our neighbour just won't accept that, and keeps pestering us.

The farmer owns the track, we just get right of way and maintenance responsibilities. The farmer refuses to pay. The farmer is very, very wealthy, and has the upper hand here.

I think I would be asking to see his 'quotes' on paper from the actual companies he has asked to 'quote' him.

I independently I would also get 3 quotes from different companies, purely for comparison notes.

Also, Make sure that the ones he shows you are quotes and not estimates, as the quote is binding, but an estimate can be changed.

@orchardgirl4 The neighbour wants it leveled, all the sides sloped, and road planings and rolling. He told us we could do that for £800. We offered to help him. Now it is £4000 for a firm to do it. (that's just our half). This seems v. expensive to me.

@Pumpkintopf. He acknowledges he has more traffic, yes, but then then said, we still had to pay for maintenance. Sure, but to agri-standard. That's the agreement.

@SolasAnla 'I would suggest that you become more active in dealing with the upkeep because if he gains a financial benefit in upgrading this is something which will be an ongoing problem'. A very good point, and one we have thought about. It really does seem to me he is trying to get us to pay to maintain a road he uses mainly to a standard he wants, when we do not have the legal obligation to do so.

I’d tell him that you don’t mind paying your way to keep the track up to the required and legally agreed agricultural standard.

However if he wants a higher standard than this it’s not in the agreement and that would be a matter for him to sort out and pay for himself as you aren’t interested currently and you don’t imagine the farmer will be either.

My friend was in a similar situation. She was buying bags of old tarmac chips, stripped off roads that were being resurfaced, and using it to fill in potholes in her farm road.

Then the chippings were harder to get as the companies went all environmentally friendly and presumably technology moved on and it could be reused on roads again or something, rather than being cast offs she could get cheap. So it’s probably true the price is up, but not in the thousands.

So she had to pay more. I think the price practically doubled. Best part of £200 a tonne bag delivered. Then the farmer helped the property owners to spread it by loaning then the tractor and trailer to move the stuff. He never once paid a penny, citing it was fine for him. However he did give them the benefit of his tractor and it’s fuel, so it did help.

Prior the potholes were like 8 inches deep every couple of feet along the whole road. It was awful on cars not designed for such rough terrain, especially when dark as you couldn’t wee the depth of the worst ones to avoid them.

Who do you get to spread the stuff? Do you take turns? It’s hard hard work. Have you ever thought of getting quotes yourself to see what the costs involved are, or do you see the bills?

@Elieza Before the neighbour showed up, we used to get a load of hard core delivered, and my husband and I shoveled it on the road to fill in any holes, and then borrowed a roller from a neighbour. We never let it get that bad where there were 8 inch potholes, but you are right, it is hard, hard work. When we gave our neighbour £300 it bought some materials, and we rented a digger to spread it. DH has a forklift truck license, so it was easy enough for him to operate it. This was 18 months ago. Happy to give our neighbour £800 he quoted for materials to smooth out a dip. Even happy to rent a digger and spread it if neighbour doesn't want to get his hands dirty, but that seems if would keep the road to a safe agri standard for people to go back and forth. I tend to doubt the farmer will contribute a thing. He owns square miles of land, and we are a tiny, tiny piece of his empire.

We have had this. We live on a similar road but tarmaced. It is owned by a neighbour and two other houses had right of way over it. Two of these were owned by the church as was the road originally. But our solicitor checked the deeds and there was no agreement to pay for maintenance of the road.

After two years road owner built another house to let, digging up the whole road leaving it in a real mess. He then came round and asked me for one thousand to put it right. I asked him who owned the road and who dug it up. He shuffled uncomfortably. I also asked why it was only split three ways when there were four houses using it. I said if the road had naturally fallen into disrepair I would have contributed but I was not contributing to a mess he made on his road when he dug it up as a money making venture. Cheeky fucker.

Make sure you do not get involved in ongoing maintenance. The farmer should contribute, he is the owner and benefits from any upgrade. No wonder he is wealthy.

Two questions-
1-If your part of the road needs maintenance (but his didn’t), would he contribute to that, even though he never uses it?
2-Does this quote include upgrading the part of the road after his property, or only the road to his property?

If the answers to both are NO, which I suspect is the case, then he is a cheeky fucker and I would tell him that you won’t contribute anything! Also tell him that if the farmer isn’t being asked to pay his percentage of the road improvements then you aren’t paying either. If he tries to force you to pay, I would certainly look into the legalities of the holiday lets and 3rd party businesses!

The farmer owns the road. He is the only person who can demand it is repaired. The farmer is quite happy with the road as is and has not said repairs are necessary.

You have therefore no legal obligation to repair it.

As your neighbour only has a right of way over a track he does not own, he cannot alter the state the road unless he has the farmer’s consent.

Some changes to tracks require planning permission. You would be unwise to contribute to your neighbour’s scheme unless the farmer has given permission for the repairs and you are certain no planning permission is necessary. Also you will know that a considerable depth of surface is necessary to hold the weight of a tractor, hence the cost will be far greater than creating a surface just for cars.

Tell him to take it up with the farmer and you will go along with whatever he agrees to.

It sounds to me as though the neighbour needs a tarmacked track, but wants you to pay half the cost. He must be making a lot of money out of his holiday lets etc. I'd tell him to do one.

I would tell him no - it meets the required standard and if he wants it upgraded, then that's at his own expense. Don't get sucked in or you'll forever be having to contribute over and above what you're actually obliged to.

@whoopy1

Two questions- 1-If your part of the road needs maintenance (but his didn’t), would he contribute to that, even though he never uses it? 2-Does this quote include upgrading the part of the road after his property, or only the road to his property?

If the answers to both are NO, which I suspect is the case, then he is a cheeky fucker and I would tell him that you won’t contribute anything! Also tell him that if the farmer isn’t being asked to pay his percentage of the road improvements then you aren’t paying either. If he tries to force you to pay, I would certainly look into the legalities of the holiday lets and 3rd party businesses!

The answer to both is No. The agreement says we have to pay to maintain our part of the road along with the farmer. We maintain it because the farmer doesn't pay, mainly because we need to use it. But honestly, we have had to do very little, because we didn't damage it. It is smooth, compacted, no holes, no problems.

The lets are legal. The business if it is his own is OK, but a third party business, probably not.

@FangsForTheMemory

It sounds to me as though the neighbour needs a tarmacked track, but wants you to pay half the cost. He must be making a lot of money out of his holiday lets etc. I'd tell him to do one.

Yes, it seems that way to me. I'm grateful to get some outside perspective here. I'm really seeing this is about someone trying to take advantage.