Can the day nursery do this?

[hoomans]

Asking for my sister who is having problems with her ex. He has recently been released from prison and my niece doesn't really know him as he has been away for three years. My sister had been letting him have unsupervised contact with her up until it transpired that he has been putting her in dodgy cars without a car seat and has been driving under the influence of drugs. Since stopping unsupervised contact he has also made threats about taking her. Dsis has asked the nursery that if he turns up for her not to let her go without prior permission from her first however they have said that as he is on her birth certificate they can't stop him taking her. Surely this goes in the face of everything the nursery stands for in regards to safeguarding? It's making dsis feel like she's not even safe at nursery, the one place where she should be kept safe, are they right to say this?

If he has parental rights then nursery have to let her go with him. Your sister needs to apply to the court to stop him being able to do this. I'm not sure what the order is called but someone will.

If there's no formal contact arrangement that limits his contact, then yes, he has parental rights and the nursery has to allow it.

Not sure so can't comment for definite but I used to work in a nursery and we had a similarish case (the parents separated but not amicably, no drugs stuff) where the mum said dad wasn't 'allowed' to collect the DD. Management told us we/they couldn't stop him if he turned up. We were meant to just keep him talking at handover whilst they phoned the mum to warn her.

Nursery aren't the police and expecting them to police that is too much I think - he is her dad (even though he sounds like he's been very irresponsible). I wonder whether your sister would need to get the police/court involved to get an order to stop him from doing this?

My ex-DH isn’t dangerous however he flits in and out of the children’s lives for years at a time. Twice he had taken the children and refused to give them back until he decided.
I asked school what they could do about not giving the children to him, and they said since they had never met him they had no way of knowing he was DCs dad so wouldn’t hand them over. They were very helpful.
I did get a residency order (uk court) which states the children live with me and school have a copy of this to see he can’t collect them.
They started a new school since and I just left his name off all records as if the children did not have another parent with parental responsibility. I know this isn’t right but one more hoop for him to jump threw having to prove he does have parental responsibility if it came to it.

Your sister needs to obtain a prohibited steps order from the family court..

Ok the consensus seems to be that they have to let her go, thanks

I had this problem with my son. The pre school said as he was on the birth certificate he has the right to take him and they would have to hand him over, but because they had never met him he would have to show Id and they would drag that out as long as possible checking it etc while someone else phoned me so I could get there quickly. I picked a pre school 5 minutes from work so I could get there if needed asap.

It’s a prohibitive steps order that’s needed. Legally the nursery have to hand over DC if he holds PR but the prohibitive steps order can stop that.

Sorry but I had this situation an after school activity and I ran and I was told by my CP officer that without a court order I had to let the children go with their dad unless I felt they were unsafe (eg he was drunk driving) in which case I should call the police.

I have also done the same as another poster I have never put his names on any school forms and my son has my last name so he would need to bring a copy of my sons birth certificate to the school as they would have no idea who he was and the school do not hold a copy on their records.

I own a nursery and where we feel a child isn’t safe (eg dv allegations etc) over our dead bodies we will let the child leave, parental rights or not. We do inform social services and the police and will let them guide us. But it would only be in situations where we feel the child could get into harm & doing it this way would lead to the intervention needed to support the child. All we care about in this instance is the welfare of the child.

@Duxiejhrhrvjz

My ex-DH isn’t dangerous however he flits in and out of the children’s lives for years at a time. Twice he had taken the children and refused to give them back until he decided. I asked school what they could do about not giving the children to him, and they said since they had never met him they had no way of knowing he was DCs dad so wouldn’t hand them over. They were very helpful. I did get a residency order (uk court) which states the children live with me and school have a copy of this to see he can’t collect them. They started a new school since and I just left his name off all records as if the children did not have another parent with parental responsibility. I know this isn’t right but one more hoop for him to jump threw having to prove he does have parental responsibility if it came to it.

Yes this is what I recommend when we get mums coming in from the local womens shelter. In those situations we deliberately leave off child’s surname on certain apps we use - it’s a trigger that we need to do further checks, inform mum (to try and get the child out from the back) and contact the police. Nurseries that hide behind birth certificates make my blood boil.

Hello,

If she was to contact Social Services then they could intervene and stop this. Social services would also take this case to the family courts whereby his parental rights could be changed.

The nursery are limited as to what they can do because he is on the birth certificate. But social services can intervene as by him putting her in dodgy cars and driving under the influence, he is putting her at risk.

How does your sister feel about family court/having his parental rights re-assessed. Social services can also set up supervised contact centre sessions for your sister's ex and your niece.

Your sister needs an order from the court.

The nursery have absolutely no right to refuse a parent with parental responsibility access to the child. It is really unfair of your sister to put the nursery in the middle like this and be annoyed when they say no.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

Your sister needs an order from the court.

The nursery have absolutely no right to refuse a parent with parental responsibility access to the child. It is really unfair of your sister to put the nursery in the middle like this and be annoyed when they say no.

I agree with this.

I completely understand where you are coming from but without the relevant orders etc. Its not fair to expect the nursery to do this.

There was a cock up at my nieces nursery and they wouldn't release her to her dad. My sister couldn't come out of work so I had to leave work to collect her. It turned out their had been a mix up with another child. My sister complained and the nursery nurse was let go.

@LadyDanburysHat I think it’s called a prohibited steps order, but someone will know better

My nursery would ask every morning who would collect DC and would (apparently) refuse to hand them over to someone else without prior notice. Not sure how this works in practice as we always called ahead.

Is he still on licence? If so, I imagine Probation would be interested to hear about the drug use and drunk driving. He could find himself back in prison if he's not careful.

As others have said, your sister needs a Prohibited Steps Order.

They do have to hand over a child to anyone with parental responsibility however if they don’t know that persons face they don’t have to hand a child over without a password or some sort of confirmation from the contacts provided when enrolling. Otherwise anyone could rock Up and say ‘hi I’m x’s dad here to collect her’

Do the staff know him?

@Ozanj I own a nursery too and whilst we would inevitably take awhile trying to ascertain that the parent was who they said they were, particularly if they weren’t listed on forms and we’d never had contact, and would use that time to contact Mum, ultimately we had no legal right to refuse to hand over the child if a parent had PR.

A prohibitive steps order was a secure way for the child to be kept safe and gave everyone the peace of mind that under no circumstances could the child be removed. We’ve been advised by the LA that we couldn’t prevent a child being given to someone with PR unless we thought they were in immediate danger such as the parent being drunk or under the influence of drugs.

DD’s nursery will only hand over to the person we’ve told them will be picking her up. Once I forgot to phone to say our plans had changed and DH would be collecting, and they made him wait outside until they’d confirmed with me on the phone. They know him, and we aren’t separated, but followed their process. However I’m not sure if they’d ultimately have any legal grounds to refuse him or what would have happened if I hadn’t answered the phone in a reasonable amount of time.

At my nursery we havent handed a child over to a guy who said he was her dad. He was her dad and we had to phone mum to confirm. He wasnt allowed to take her as we didnt know him and he couldn't give a password that mum had given us. He left empty handed.