Why schools do this!!?

[FedUpOfYetAnotherCold]

AIBU to wonder why children in primary school are taught 'head, shoulders, knees and toes' in French, can tell the difference between metamorphic, sedimentary and ignious rocks, can trace a stone age picture, can create great models of the tower of London, and learn (and promptly forget) all about the Victorians, Romans etc... but...

Quite a few can't swim 25m by end of primary (a skill which could save their life), many barely know what the term 'mental health' means - let alone know how to manage their own or support others with MH difficulties. Most state primary kids are not given access to decent sports provision to support future athletic dreams, better manage in-school behaviour, and promote healthy lifestyle and reduce obesity, and very few kids are supported to learn key life skills. (I'm focussing on primary here - but we also need more life skills like MH and budgeting and cooking etc... taught in secondary)..

Surely we need more teaching in schools on mental health, life skills and better access to sports and teaching which will lead to physically and mentally healthy adults of the future.

When my children finish primary I'd like them to be able to read, write and do basic maths. But in terms of the rest of the teaching - surely we now need to re-evaluate how much emphasis we place on teaching less vital skills such as French (if a language is deemed important why not Chinese, Spanish or Arabic, or something more useful in this current global village) which could be learnt later if desired?

AIBU?

I've spent a lot of money learning to drive, but can I fuck do it. It just doesn't go in.

you made me laugh carpets!! (I'm a bit like this with dieting!! I've spent a fortune on different diets, but can I f** lose weight?!!!)

Maybe that’s what the system needs to do, ensure all children are literate and numerate by the end of primary?

I agree :)

(I'd also add in, that all kids should understand the basics of a healthy lifestyle and know some strategies to manage low mood, anxiety and anger before they leave primary too... But..)

I can never understand what people have against ox bow lakes- they are what inspired me to study geography at university! Everyone should learn about ox bow lakes😀

I'm a secondary school teacher (languages and then pastoral care) so have some experience of troubled young people, and also of schools!

Im surprised that you have such a negative attitude towards schools given your current role, surely you must realise that a lot of the problems start early on (as in during baby/toddler years) and that cutting out French and teaching how to rent a property instead wouldn't really fix the problem? Where would kids who wanted to learn about History, or Physics, or French learn those things? Or would you have a two tiered system where all the middle class kids got to learn languages, music and geography and the kids from challenging backgrounds got more practical options?

I think more support should be available to teach basic life skills to families who aren't coping. I also think that certainly in secondary school, we do a lot of work on mental health through the various subjects - such as resilience, restorative practice, mindfulness...

Finally, I find it so short sighted and patronising when people say that languages just aren't relevant to people from a certain type of background. In my first few years of teaching I worked in one of the most deprived areas of the country, in a school that came pretty low nationally in terms of attainment. Some kids still enjoyed learning Spanish, and finding out about a world far beyond where they were growing up.

@KitBumbleB

I agree OP, the amount of kids who leave high school and dont know how to write a CV, complete an application form or even have the confidence to speak on the phone is staggering

Kids need to learn skills for modern life, they dont need to know Queen Victoria's kids names

How to write a CV & a covering letter - do teachers know how to do this? Our local state schools are very old fashioned - they move at sloth pace, proud of their backwards approach because they think that tradition and lack of change indicates quality. Don't ask teachers to be modern - head against a brick wall! Any that enter the profession with modern tendencies soon get it kicked out of them.

Most of these things (paying a bill etc) are tasks, not skills. We equip children with skills because you teach a set of skills (reading, arithmetic) and it enables you to then do many tasks for yourself.

Spot on. We teach children Maths because they can then apply that skill and knowledge to a wide range of scenarios they need for life. The better a child is at Maths, the more competent they will be at calculating interest rates, budgeting, reading a timetable, calculating mileage, checking they have received the right change, deciphering their electricity and gas bill etc.

It would be ridiculous and an astronomical waste of time to teach students every literal commonplace or niche task they might encounter in their life. You teach the child the skill and then they apply that skill and that knowledge to solve a problem they are facing in real life - whether it’s drafting a letter to the bank, changing the fuse in their hairdryer or looking after a pet. That’s what education is all about. The same with English and Science and all other subjects. I know kids who left school to go on to become chefs and they always exclaim that “they had no idea it would involve so much of what they learnt in chemistry”. Pretty much all cooking, preparation, flavour or aromatic tasks require a basic knowledge of chemistry.

School teaches children the skills and the knowledge and the child then goes on to apply that skill and that knowledge to a wide range of life tasks or occupations.

@DeepaBeesKit

Not being able to swim is less likely to be a barrier to long term employment than good language skills.

French can be taught cost effectively to a large group on site, takes little time, and contributes to better language and communication skills.

Getting to being able to swim 25m takes an investment of time and resource that is not practical to provide to groups of 30.

That is simply not true.

Learning to swim keeps people alive which is far more important than learning a second language, not that it needs to be a choice between them.

And lots of countries manage to deliver swimming lessons through the school system. Absolutely untrue to suggest it isn't possible.

Perhaps less focus on ox bow lakes, and more on learning skills and strategies to manage low mood, anxiety and regulate emotion would be helpful not just for those at risk of offending, but for all kids so we can reduce the numbers of adults struggling with their mental health.
Perhaps it would be better to look at some of the causes of trauma and addressing those issues insociety instead of limiting limiting educational outcomes for everyone so that non-specialist non-mental health professionals can tell kids to talk about being feelings.

Learning about mindfulness aged 13 is going to make fuck all difference if you're 29, are at risk of redundancy, have depression, are in insecure housing and worried your family is about to be made homeless if you lose your job.

Schools are for teaching academics. I could maybe see some emphasis on general and mental health. I’d like to see sports completely removed from schools. General fitness is fine as it pertains to general health, but schools don’t need to be in the business of competitive sport in the first place.

@ChrissyPlummer

I can speak conversational French, I got every swimming award that was available to me, I can read, write, cook. However, I still have anxiety and depression. I don’t believe being taught about it in school would have prevented this, as y’know it’s my brain chemistry.

I beg to disagree. Schools delivering mental health programmes in primary are seeing incredible results that ripple through school communities and families. Children being taught to conquer anxiety are learning extremely valuable life skills. Just yesterday I interviewed a bunch of people about this, the outcomes are extraordinary.

@FedUpOfYetAnotherCold

On reflection, to all those who seem to think most parents do a great job, it's the parents roll etc... and schools do enough - we still have 1 in 4, rising to 1 in 3 adults experiencing mental health problems in this country.

Perhaps less focus on ox bow lakes, and more on learning skills and strategies to manage low mood, anxiety and regulate emotion would be helpful not just for those at risk of offending, but for all kids so we can reduce the numbers of adults struggling with their mental health.

Thing is, while most kids won't use that information, some will go on to jobs that will need that information. If we only teach the basics and then life skills, where do our experts come from in a few years time? It can't all be saved up to learn at uni if they need it.

And what about teaching curiosity? Teaching kids to look at the world around them and think about why it is like that? Have you never felt the satisfaction of saying "I know why it does that."

As a parent it's our job too teach our children all this stuff, my children know how too budget, how too cook, I also work on their mental health with them, most secondary schools also help with mental health and their jobs are to educate children not to parent our children.

@DeepaBeesKit - all the schools round here have their own pools and manage to teach classes of 30. No charge to parents, either.

@FedUpOfYetAnotherCold

On reflection, to all those who seem to think most parents do a great job, it's the parents roll etc... and schools do enough - we still have 1 in 4, rising to 1 in 3 adults experiencing mental health problems in this country.

Perhaps less focus on ox bow lakes, and more on learning skills and strategies to manage low mood, anxiety and regulate emotion would be helpful not just for those at risk of offending, but for all kids so we can reduce the numbers of adults struggling with their mental health.

I think you’re overestimating the number of parents in this country who would prefer their child to do three hours of meditation and anxiety management lessons a week than three extra lessons of science or maths (for example). Some would prefer it, yes but the vast majority, no. This is why almost every other country is overtaking is in educational standards. They simply do not have this hostility to traditional education that we do. They don’t see academic and non-academic skills as a one-or-the-other thing. It’s not a zero sum game. Becoming more traditionally educated does not impede you, take you away from or prevent you from exploring anything else in your own time.

Eh? Swimming is in the national curriculum and schools have to do this in primary? Though in my opinion swimming is probably better placed on the parents to be fair!

Not all learning is the role of the school...parents have the biggest responsibility here.

Children already spend so much time at school. Pretending budget cuts aren't an issue, how much do you extend the school day and/or year by?

Schools should ideally focus on academic subjects, English, maths, science, history, geography, a second language etc. I know at my childrens school there is a lot that could be cut, These subjects are enriching and without them it would increase the class divide. Dumb working class and intelligent middle and upper-class who can afford a decent education. This was very much the dynamic. This would reduce the amount of time Children spend at school (there are studies to suggest that school is negative for mental health- reducing hours may improve this and in consequence academic performance), more time at home with parents for life skills, moral upbringing etc. However issues with this is that school is childcare, many parents would struggle with this financially. Not many families do have a stay at home parent, after a busy day at work parents and children too mentally or physically exhausted to teach said life skills. Parents need support and reintroduce sure start centres etc to increase their own knowledge. It would need to become the norm again to have one stay at home parent which I can't see happening.

There is no solution as far as I can see.

You seem to be one of the many parents that exist these days that assume it is a schools job to raise children. It's not, schools are there to deliver a national curriculum which is absolutely packed and not enough time to cover as it is.

First of all schools do actually take the onus to try and fit in everything you mentioned. There simply is not enough time or funding to do everything. we have zero budgets and all the extras you are expecting are usually funded by the teacher themselves. The only exception being swimming which every child is entitled to but only for one of their academic years.

Also the government expectations is an emphasis on the academic. Schools have no say in the curriculum. They teach what they have to and try fit in what else they can, which is frankly very, very little.

On a final note, everything you are demanding schools provide are not only accessible via schools. Parents could actually take some responsibility and raise the kids they choose to have. Discuss mental health with them, involve them in cooking, bring your child to swimming lessons. And perhaps be a bit more appreciative of your child's school and teachers who are likely doing everything in their power to support your child as well as the 28 other children in the class do the very best they can.

@FedUpOfYetAnotherCold

Still confused about the cookie! I work with offenders, many of whom can't read and write, have extremely poor mental health and none were taught mental health, life skills or given access to ways to manage these things in school.

This is something I'm genuinely passionate about. I really think alongside reading, writing and maths - we need to support our kids to come out of primary school with good mental and physical health and knowing how to manage basic living skills, stay away from substances etc...

Why can't parents teach 'basic living skills'??

@FedUpOfYetAnotherCold

Surely some of the onus is on the parents? We have the ability to teach our own kids to swim, pay for lessons etc.

I get that, but many kids don't not have parents able to teach these things or provide lessons etc...

I think, as a pp said, we need a conversation about the role of schools and how we can support ALL kids (not just those privileged enough to have parents able to teach them) to keep mentally and physically healthy and manage to live in society in a compassionate way, able to stay on the right side of the law, and able to live happily and comfortably

Why on Earth do you say it is only 'privileged' parents who can teach their children basic skills? How patronising!

I know where you're coming from (sort of), but there is absolutely no way that what you've listed should all be the responsibility of the school! The kids would be there 10 hours per day.

Schools need to teach academics.
Many parents do not support their children through even the basics of their education so gaps are massive from learner to learner.
Schools have little money to play with.
Most teachers do their best.
I think the visual and performing arts are as important as History, Geography, RE etc and for some children they are more important to their self-esteem and intelligence than maths and English and sodding fronted adverbial nonsense.

Parents need to understand they should supplement their child's education with what a school can't offer.

Surely the parents should take some responsibility for getting the kids enrolled in swimming lessons. Schools just don't have the capacity to do everything.

Ah, you want schools to fill the gaps where their families fail them.

It depends what you think school is for, really.

The things you cite would be wonderful, but with the best will in the world, schools cannot do the parents job too.
I do not know what the answer is to compensate for shit parents, but kids are only in school what 15% of their time, so even though (at my primary school at least) they pump so many resources in to those children who aren't supported at home, they just can't keep up with supportive parents.

[quote UndertheCedartree]@DeepaBeesKit - all the schools round here have their own pools and manage to teach classes of 30. No charge to parents, either.[/quote]
There's not a single school in my LA that has its own pool. Where on earth do you live?

Back in the day, many secondary schools did. But they're phenomenally expensive to run and maintain, and with the financial cuts and the curriculum squeeze, they're long gone. And no primary schools had them.