Who is BU - me, the plumber or the joiner?

[Wife2b]

Last week we had the plumber come in to fit new radiators, he had the joiner with him who will be doing our skirtings and is aware of the measurements. They figured out the measurements between themselves and I left them to it.

At some point they shout me upstairs to confirm happy with positioning. Fast forward to yesterday, we realised that the skirting will not fit as the radiators have been positioned too low. The joiner suggested we put wood on the wall to have the radiator stick out more and the skirting could be cut to go behind the radiator but it was significantly overlap. I said I wasn’t happy with that suggestion because I want it to look right (we’ve spent a lot of money renovating the house). Joiner said that’s not a problem we’ll sort it. He calls the plumber who agrees to come back and refit the radiators but he wants paying.

Plumber says we have to order new pipe tails as the previous ones have been sawn to size and therefore the radiator cannot be raised without longer ones. Annoying, it’s another £60 but hey ho. He then says he wants paying £160 for coming out again, the joiner offered to go halves with me but I was reluctant to agree because of having to buy more pipe tails. Joiner said he’d absorb the cost and he just wants solutions not problems. In the end I had a chat with my other half and we felt bad for the joiner losing that much money as he too will lose a days work so we gave him £50 so we and the joiner in total paid £110 each to rectify the mistake.

Personally I think it was an error they none of us picked up on so the best thing to do would have been to split the cost three ways (although not sure how fair that would have been because obviously the joiner lost a days work too). The way I see it, the plumber is quids in for something the he was equally responsible for. He is blaming me saying I approved the positioning (never crossed my mind about the skirting but why would it - I don’t do this day in day out for a living, I just saw it was centralised and thought great). The joiner thinks it’s a mistake all round. I think it was their responsibility to be aware of fixings skirtings etc knowing the materials that were in order but I offered money as I felt bad on the joiner for the plumber demanding more money.

Who is being unreasonable?

Plumber is taking the piss. Schoolboy error and he knows it.
Joiner is a soft touch and the pair of you have had your pants pulled down

100% the plumber's fault and he's being a CF-er demanding another callout charge! He had discussed the skirting that needed to be fitted, including the measurements, with the joiner yet he still fitted the radiators too low. Yes, you approved their position, but that was to check they were centred – given the calculations the two men were doing, there was an assumption that you didn't need to check the height.

I don't think the plumber is at fault because the joiner did not tell you he positioned them at the wrong height!

Skirting boards come in a variety of sizes and flooring also comes into consideration

I would be inclined to think it was on the joiner especially seen as he is happy to take the loss of earnings for it

Say to the plumber, why would I need to approve the height when that's what you two had been measuring up together? You shouldn't be paying either of them extra for this! I suspect the plumber didn't get the right length pipe tails in the first place and rather than admit his mistake and have to go and get more then come back, he just fitted them anyway.

Also sounds like your habing custom made skirting boards? Instead of standard

Also minimum height is 150mm, I know a lot of skirting can be that height these days but worth measuring to make sure that there's at least 150mm clearance.
I'd check every single rad for level as well,even slightly out I'd demand they level it. This plumber is an arse so I'd be just as arsey to him

My hubby is an electrician and if he ever makes a mistake he puts it right and pays out for it , never puts it back to the customer , it's bad trademanship .

Unless the joiner gave him the wrong measurement in the first place? Now I've seen @Greenrubber's comment that makes more sense – he's falling over himself to sort it out because he knows he got it wrong.

@Greenrubber

Also sounds like your habing custom made skirting boards? Instead of standard

They’re from a skirting board online company, they’re pretty standard in design but are made to order. We’ve asked that they’re primed so they’ll be ready to paint.

How much clearance is there?

Why don't you ask them both why the rads were hung too low?

Surely you would have the skirtings fitted before the rads, more logical.

Well all of this depends on what brief you gave both of them. They are working for you. It was up to you to tell the plumber what height the radiators needed to be placed above the skirting. Why would he know that they needed to be higher than they are now? From one of your posts it seems you didn’t communicate this to him.

The joiner was there to take measurements. Why would he supervise or oversee the plumber. That was your job.

another way to think about it, is to image that you had employed a project manager or overseer to manage the trades for you.

An experienced overseer would have known to allow for the skirting when positioning the radiator and would, you hope, not have given the approval which you gave.

Without an overseer, the plumber picked a location for the radiator and got your approval. As far as he is concerned, he has done the job to your satisfaction.

From his point of view, you are now asking for a change so it makes sense that he is paid to do the change.

Your joiner is the one trying to keep the peace because he still wants the work.

It might not seem obvious to people having small jobs done but this is exactly the role of the project manager or overseer. By not employing one, you have taken on that role. You are hoping that the trades will work it out amongst themselves but that isn't really what you are paying them to do.

You give them a job, approve it and that's the job done.

This is also why it's so difficult to get trades to do small jobs. Things go wrong and they get the blame in a way that doesn't happen so much on a job with someone overseeing or project managing the work.

I'd pay the plumber.

We have paid him but I’m not 100% convinced it’s the right thing to have done. Nevermind it’s a lesson learnt.

But if you agreed the position of the radiators and they were placed there then the plumber did what you asked. Why would he do anything different from the job you paid him to do.

Now you need them moved. That means you need to pay for that piece of work.

I agreed the position on the radiators that it would be an equal distance between the radiator and the floor. He didn’t take into account the new flooring that the joiner was putting in and both were aware of.

To start at the beginning

Is it fair and reasonable to expect a client to know exactly where to position a rad and how far out from the wall ?

Client may well say I want it on that wall in the centre etc etc but the finer point is down to the plumber

To compound it he has done some arse covering and then spun it back on you and the " joiner " who is getting custom skirting made

Your plumber is dodging responsibility and is also taking the piss but that ship has sailed now so just need to learn and move on

To extend some tails in copper would cost about a tenner in pipe if that and take an hour

Learn to pass the buck if you know nothing.

If that's where you think is best.
Or is there anything we need to think about regarding where it goes? What are the benefits of other positions?

I was asked recently where to have a radiator that was smaller than the previous one. We did the whole dancing with decisions business. Skirting was in place though.

I think the positioning may be how far the skirts project out from the wall and also how high they are which would determine the position of the pipe tails , not where area the rad was sited

The plumber knew the dimensions of the skirting so unless the client was adamant that it was to go somewhere different or the chippy changed the dimensions of the skirting then its the plumber all day long

Did they measure from the original flooring, not taking into account the thickness of the new flooring? If it is this and the joiner okayed the measurement then it is his error. I can easily see how it could be done, but it's more on the joiner than the plumber if he went by mutually agreed measurements. They can't be out by much either, very frustrating for you!