To want to buy the house but only with the land?

[Sp3849]

So we went to view a house we loved. A rural farmhouse with small parcel of land however on viewing realised it has another parcel to the side of it with caravan on. Asked the agent who it belonged to and they were vague. So before we made an offer I knocked the farm next door. To mainly discuss the access track that runs over thier land and they told us that small parcel of land next to the house with caravan was actually owned by the house In question. The grandchildren of lady who had lived thier (now deceased) frequently partied there. We then went and had a nose and there were beer bottles etc everywhere. I then referred this back to agent who then came back with that the family wanted to keep that part of the land to continue to stay in the caravan a few times a year and share the houses water supply (a well). We have gone back and said we would happily buy the house for the guide price and pay additional 15k for land which is approx 1/3 acre but won't consider buying it without it. My primary concern is that 1. Grandchildren could still party there and 2. What's stopping them renting caravan out etc? It is our responsibility to maintain track etc which they would also need to use to access caravan. Also where would they go to toilet etc. It is currently linked to house electrics which obviously it would be disconnected. I worry it could cause alot of issues. They are still yet to respond to our offer (made 8 days ago) they have had no other offers. Why are they taking so long to respond its driving me insane. Should I ring and put a deadline on the offer? Are we being unreasonable with concerns?

to be fair i would walk because owning the land means shit, they can still party there as doesnt seem like they will care

As a PPfrom Cornwall has said, plots of land with (or likely to get) planning permission are selling for silly money in scenic areas, especially if there is water/electricity on site.
I'd think an offer of £15,000 was 'cheeky'; the going rate for 1/3 acre with shared access in scenic parts of Scotland would be many times that, for eg:
www.fiuran.co.uk/oban/properties/plot-2-airdeny-mill-taynuilt-argyll-pa35-1hy/

But quite apart from that, you surely would not want to be living next door to a party caravan - especially a party caravan owned by people who did not clear their rubbish (bottles) away, and who have past form for not getting on with other neighbours?

You can buy Land Registry documents for any house, so it would be an idea, if you are still interested, to buy those for all the adjacent properties. Money well spent, IMHO.

As a different PP has said, shared road access need not be an issue; it's quite common in rural areas. And - though this is not the easiest thing to do - if the owners of the bit of land with the caravan had used the roadway for a certain number of years, they might be able to claim that they'd established a right to do so. Also, as PP said, it would be almost impossible to stop them if they really wanted to.

That caravan sounds like a total nightmare and I wouldn't touch the house without that extra land and checking all restrictions and rights. If they can't even clean up around the caravan while people are viewing the house, it doesn't bode well for how they'll be if you were living there. They clearly couldn't give a shit.

@BorryMum

I don't see what is cheeky about it, they want to keep a piece of the land for future use. They aren't going to be teenagers for ever and maybe want the land as they have nice memories of the place. However I wouldn't purchase it unless the land was included purely because it could cause you future problems. It's not cheeky to pick and choose what they want to sell though, it belongs to them and they can sell it how they like.

It’s cheeky to try to hide it. The op didn’t realise that patch of land was on the title but not being sold but would continue to rely on shared water and access. Depending on the caravan type I wonder what their plans were for sewage also, probably not something they had to think about in the past.

Lots of red flags OP. There would be no way I would buy the property without the land. Imagine buying your forever home with a party caravan next door - horrendous.

I think this sale is salvageable though. You are in a very strong position and if they have a good estate agent, they should be advised to sell the land.

*You are cash buyers
*You are flexible on moving
*They haven't had any other offers - how long has it been on the market?
*Although you found out about the caravan from a neighbour, it should have been discovered by a good solicitor in the searches, so any other future potential buyers will probably have had the same concerns.

I would carry on looking for property. They may need to confer with the rest of the family which is why it is taking time.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to set out a deadline on this but don't give them a really tight deadline - ask the EA how many households are involved in this sale - the more households, the longer it will probably take.

As previously stated, you are in a really strong position - you need to spell this out to the EA and they need to make this clear to the sellers, particularly if they have been trying to sell it for a while.

If this sale progresses, make sure you get a very good solicitor and also keep in touch with the farm next door.

We bought a rural property where the private access road to it is shared with the neighbour. The other owner owns the track and we have documented legal rights to access to it which comes with a duty to share maintenance.
As it happens the neighbour and we have always been very fair about joint maintenance and our legal rights give us protection from funny business. But I am still conscious that if the house next door changed hands and we got a pain in the rear for a neighbour it might get less simple.
I think that even apart from all the potential for cheekyfuckery if the parcel of land stays in their possesion you would at least want their access and joint maintenance of it written into the legal documents but even that wouldn't protect you from them flipping you the bird (which they have form for) and ignoring, all it would do is allow you to serve lawsuits to try to force them to be reasonable... Urgh!
They will feel they have legacy rights to carry on exactly as before and I would fully expect them to have zero consideration for you.

Don't touch it unless they sell the land.

For the EA to assume/fail to mention their caravan would just carry on sharing your water!!!! wtaf. Imagine if you had a row over their noise and they decided to pee in it before they left.

That would put me off too.

My friend had a not dissimilar issue with a relatives house after a death.

The house was in trust to several members of the family, so they had to agreeand they had huge issues with that.

On top of that, they had a plot of land behind the house in a separate arrangement and ownership.

They don't have a road access to this plot, but the deeds for the land have a clear strip of land so they have access to the land which the family had deliberately put into the deeds when the land had been split into separate plots.

What you need to establish is if this is already one or two plots of land on the land registry. (Easily done - there is a free map thingie where you can see the plots and their numbers). That way you can see if a) there are two plots b) if there is a plot with no obvious access without going on someone else's land.

From there the questions are if its a single plot atm, what the plots are going to be (ie. what are you actually buying) and whether there are access conditions.

If its two plots then if they sell one plot blocking access to the other, unless it is specified explicitly in the conditions of sale they DO NOT have a legal right to use your land without permission and you wouldn't give it. Again this needs to be made clear for all parties to prevent disputes further down the line.

My guess is a) they haven't fully thought it through - particularly with regards to power, water and sanitation which they will have to install / split / disconnect (and pay to do prior to the sale) b) they may not have formally split the plot yet c) family members have a difference of opinion and can't agree

I think you have to be direct with the agent, set this out explicitly and give a deadline. If they don't meet the deadline, walk.

It will cause no end of issues if this isn't resolved from the off or there is at least a concerted acknowledgment of these problems from the word go. My friend has now sold the house after the sale fell through twice but she's still trying to resolve issues with other plots of land. This has been going on for about three years in one way or another because the family can't agree.

It's eight days and you haven't heard back from them, so they're clearly not interested in your offer or trying to negotiate - if someone couldn't make a decision within that time frame but were interested in the offer, they'd have gotten back to you to at least say they needed more time.

Unless you have more money to buy the land, I'd tell them the offer is still on the table but you're viewing others properties in the next few days as you're not willing to hang around indefinitely.

It took almost three years for a family member to get the money for a small parcel of land next to a rural property. She also owned a derelict property and a lot of land surrounding it all, including a track access to the said property. It was very much in the buyers’ interests to purchase the bit of land and sister made them a very reasonable offer for them to buy it, for a quick sale! The people buying the plot of land and their solicitors caused huge problems which meant my sister could not sell her derelict property and land until everything was settled. Then along came a local women who had inherited a huge sum of money. She bought everything remaining, well aware of the situation. A huge relief.

Like others, I would not buy the property without the extra land. It could take years to sort out and with the situation re water and possible shared sewage disposal it would be a nightmare.

Always keep at the back of your mind that the EA works for the vendor. However friendly the appear
Once it's sold they can walk away
I think you are right to be cautious, I'd want the land too

www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search

You want to check this to see if its already one or two plots as a start. And which plot access is on if it is split.

If its still one plot on this, you've immediately hit legal issues about what you are buying.

I am not defending the caravan owners in any way, but surely, if they wanted to sell the land with the caravan on, they would apply for outline planning permission and sell it separately as a building plot?
It would be worth much more to them, that way.

I don't agree that they had to tell anyone that they owned the land with the caravan, so long as the boundaries of the tumbledown house and plot of land surrounding it being sold were clearly identified. In an ideal world, the estate agent should have shown this in the sales particulars, but, even so, the boundaries would have had to be very, very carefully checked and agreed by solicitors on both sides.

I live in a rural area where there are many small parcels of land; local people know who owns what but it's not at all clear to outsiders. I agree with a PP who said that you should keep close contact with the neighbouring farmers; they will have so much useful local info. Look out also for the local structure plan - usually on local authority website. It will tell you which areas of currently empty land are scheduled for possible future development. And, at least in Scotland, infill - such as building on the plot with the caravan - is usually allowed and indeed is often preferred to 'greenfield' development.

I really don't want to be depressing, but you did ask....

I don't think it's particularly cheeky. They own the land, there's no law that says it has to be included in the sale of the house. I am sure that they would look to regularise the access and utilities (perhaps with some of the cash they will make from selling the house?). Your solicitor, if he or she is any good at all, will pick up on these issues immediately and they will get put right before the sale is finalised.

Think about it another way; I advertise my parents' old dining table on eBay. It's a lovely table with lots of sentimental history for my family but far too big to accommodate it in my tiny house. However, I don't want to sell the matching chairs as they will work for me in another room. AIBU to put them in the garage when you come to look at the table because I don't want to negotiate with you about selling them? Of course I'm not; they're my chairs and I want to keep them, so I don't offer them for sale. This is no different.

That said, YANBU to refuse to buy the house without securing the entire plot. I would be worried about privacy and future land use. But TANBU not to offer it for sale if they want to keep it.

How long has I been there- squatters rights and right of way need to be clear

You're right not to try to buy it without the land.

I'd call the EA to ask if they have any other properties. When asked, you had no answer on a very reasonable offer so you've let it go. I'd point out to the EA that anyone will have the extra land parcel with its myriad issues pointed out at the solicitor stage, so they are storing up sales falling through by not mentioning it at the outset. The sellers may want to accept your offer after all, but no point in you waiting around on the off chance and it's much nicer to negotiate after walking away than while chasing.

I am not an expert but surely the land and the house will be part of the same deeds and if they want to separate ownership of the two there will be legal implications.

They would also probably need an easement to continue to use the access track and it wouldn't be an automatic right.

It just doesn't seeem as simple as they think it is.

I am sure that they would look to regularise the access and utilities (perhaps with some of the cash they will make from selling the house?)

Wee bit optimistic given the shared water and electricity supply to the land they wish to retain was concealed/not declared and they have been so unco-operative over regularising/maintaining the shared access that the neighbour had to dig and lay an entirely seperate track to escape dealing with that issue.

Obviously they don't have to offer it for sale, clearly that's their perogative. But should OP be worried about them lingering on the scene. Yes, yes, she should.

I hope they have given you an answer by now!

It is cheeky trying to keep a piece of land that uses the utilities from the house and the people using the land will be using the accessway the home owners will be maintaining.

Your analogy only works if you're selling the dining room but intending on keeping the dining table in place to use as and when you want.

I'd keep on house hunting. not surprised the house has been on the market for ages.

I know people with rural properties which are trespassed on and gates are opened with bolt cutters by people who think they have a right to go places. Sure you can tell them off but if you're dealing with a nasty piece of work it ain't that simple.
If people with form for being thoughtless neighbours own the caravan and op owns the access track, shared electrics and water and neighbouring house it's all pointing to Big Fat Headache.

The estate agent sounds untrustworthy.

And the owners own the triangle shaped bit below the road on the diagram. But another party owns the land the road is on.

You'd need straight away to resolve the access issues on that - so there's a legal headache. Especially given what the neighbour (who I assume is the landowner who has the big plot around both of the smaller plots) has already said.

If you go for this one, its going to be fun even without considering the difficult potential sellers who want to keep the rest of their land

Beautiful house and location though.