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Original poster

When does 'overcrowded' become a safeguarding issue?

64 replies

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 26/10/2021 17:35

Officially speaking, rather than opinion?

Say if there was two adults, 8 children and pets in a small 2 bedroom flat?

This is anecdotal, I'm not talking about a friend or relative.

I've asked colleagues before and they never give me a straight answer.

Is it because it's never a safeguarding issue? Because it feels like it should be?

OP posts:
DeepaBeesKit · 26/10/2021 21:07

It wont be based on number of people per bedroom and the like. It will be far more of a subjective judgement

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 26/10/2021 21:12

Safeguarding issue means there is a risk of harm. Where is the harm? Do the children have a place to sleep? Are they fed? Can they play?
My ILs are in another country where it's not the norm for people to have their own bedroom necessarily. PILs have a small 2 bed flat with a large living room. At some points there have been 7 adults and 5 children living there and nobody has been at risk of any harm. There are a core of 4 adults and 3 kids living there now. They all have a place to sleep, the flat is cleaned daily so spotless, the children can play. It's just a different cultural norm.

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 26/10/2021 21:12

Sorry - should have said I'm a social worker!

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 26/10/2021 21:12

@picklemewalnuts

In my area a landlord has been told to issue an eviction notice because the house is overcrowded. The family have had more children than bedrooms, and the ages/sexes needing to share are inappropriate.

And it's a lot less crowded than your situation!

Told by who?
DeepaBeesKit · 26/10/2021 21:13

Also OP tread carefully with this one as it's a bit of a cultural minefield. There are plenty of communities where large extended households are the norm and they are not all loaded. You could easily cause offence in assuming neglect where a family set up is along a specific traditional line and works well for the family.

ImFree2doasiwant · 26/10/2021 21:16

Statutory overcrowding is quite a high bar to meet.

There are all manner of reasons a family could be living like this

Nachostress · 26/10/2021 21:21

It's not a safeguarding issue, and I can't really think of any examples where it would be considered so - in the sense of 'social services stepping in'.
Safeguarding concerns are when a parent doesn't take necessary/reasonable steps to care for the child(ren)
A parent in overcrowded accommodation who is looking after their children is the victim of our rubbish housing system but it isn't a 'safeguarding issue'
Social services might offer advice to a family but they rarely have any influence/power to secure them alternative housing. And housing don't usually consider overcrowding as a reason to move unless exceptional/unavoidable circs. Eg they won't give points for overcrowding if someone has gone on to have more children. They may give points if for example you'd taken in another family member who was otherwise homeless.

As others have said overcrowding can increase the risk of other issues such as neglect and DV but on its own it's not a safeguarding concern. Not to say it's a nice situation but poverty/deprivation and safeguarding concerns are not the same thing.

FindingMeno · 26/10/2021 21:21

Some people make a conscious decision to live with less possessions in a smaller home to free up money for things important to them such as family activities.

NellieBertram · 26/10/2021 21:24

Parents on a sofabed in the living room, 2 sets of bunk beds in each bedroom, all the kids have appropriate clothing, are well fed, do their homework at the library and play in the park. Pets are well trained and cleaned up after.

Or

A couple of dirty mattresses with no sheets in each room, kids sleep where they fall, no one has a winter coat, cat shit everywhere, aggressive dog never taken for walks, children often miss school

Overcrowding isn't in itself a safeguarding issue.

RacketeerRalph · 26/10/2021 21:34

It's dependent on lots of factors, the main being whether it's owner/ occupier or rented and also whether privately rented or social housing.

Also depends on age and sex of those sharing.

And if everyone has their own bed, it's much less of a safeguarding issue.

Safeguarding thresholds are not cut and dry.

Doorhandleghost · 26/10/2021 21:49

Isn’t there also an issue that they can only be rehoused by the council into an appropriate sized property and not just into one that is bigger but still overcrowded? With a family that size their options would be severely limited, whether private or social housing.

Whether it’s a safeguarding issue surely depends on the circumstances. If the kids are clean, fed and able to thrive pastorally and academically then what’s the issue safeguarding wise. It’s not ideal of course but not everyone has the choice of where to live do they.

Hankunamatata · 26/10/2021 21:54

No expert but wouldn't neglect come into play if each child didnt have a bed space to sleep in - even if bed was shared

CreamPantsuit · 26/10/2021 22:10

Do you mean hypothetical rather than anecdotal?

Cocomarine · 26/10/2021 22:26

“Could never give a straight answer” is a phrase that can suggest obfuscation or ignorance. Do you mean that, or do you mean that - as on this thread - they showed you there isn’t a simple formula?

Chocolatewheatos · 26/10/2021 22:30

@Goblina

Who in their right mind would have 8 kids if they lived in a tiny flat and couldn't afford a bigger property.

8 kids isn't a single contraception failure.

Yeah this.
Briony123 · 26/10/2021 22:55

@londonrach

It's not a safeguarding issue... overcrowding yes. Were you in a bigger property prior to the 2 bed flat as 8 children is alot of children to have in a 2 bed flat.
8 is a lot of children full stop.
TurnUpTurnip · 26/10/2021 23:04

I live in a 3 bed ground floor maisonette above me there is a one bed flat every single occupants that have lived there have been families despite it only being a one bed flat, there was previously a family of 5 living above me they lived there for 3 years (mum dad teenager daughter and 2 primary school boy and girl) I often wondered about how cramped it must be but it was private rented so I assumed they knew the person renting to them as most places wouldn’t allow 5 people in a one bed flat.

Lalastepmum · 26/10/2021 23:23

I worked with a family with six children and two adults in a two bed flat and another in a one bed flat with two adults three children. They were socially over crowded not statutory overcrowded.
My council did have a formula
So a baby counted under one was a zero then each age range when from quarter to half then three quarters till they reached a full adult.

My council Northampton state you need to have your living room as a sleeping area too.

SpangoDweller · 26/10/2021 23:29

My neighbours were rehoused when they had a third child in a 2-bed; parents and a grandparent also living in the property. So presume someone was sleeping in the living room permanently, as well as all the children in one small room.

What @NellieBertram said is most relevant though. Safeguarding is a different matter.

NotSureYesorno · 26/10/2021 23:38

All I can think of is the pontipines!

Nachostress · 26/10/2021 23:44

@Lalastepmum most LA housing lists have similar formulas, but that is simply what housing consider as a factor when prioritising people for rehousing, just as they'd consider things like age, income, health needs and local connection. It doesn't mean housing view it as a safeguarding concern.

Lalastepmum · 26/10/2021 23:57

[quote Nachostress]@Lalastepmum most LA housing lists have similar formulas, but that is simply what housing consider as a factor when prioritising people for rehousing, just as they'd consider things like age, income, health needs and local connection. It doesn't mean housing view it as a safeguarding concern.[/quote]
Sorry my point was it isn’t really safeguarding and was explaining the way it works.

My family of six children were the happiest children I ever met.

BrieAndChilli · 26/10/2021 23:58

It’s subjective though.
We used to live in a 2 bed flat, it was bloody massive though!!!
We had 2 big bedrooms - you could have got 4 singles beds in each with room to spare, it had a bath room and 2 seperate toilets with sinks in. The lounge was in the roof and ran the whole length of the building and was huge - you could have got 8 beds up there with room to spare!! It wouldn’t be ideal but there would have been more than enough room for everyone to have somewhere to sleep and possible to screen off areas for privacy.
We had more room than most 4 bed modern boxes that are built now!

choli · 27/10/2021 00:10

@Goblina

Who in their right mind would have 8 kids if they lived in a tiny flat and couldn't afford a bigger property.

8 kids isn't a single contraception failure.

Perhaps the small flat came after the 8 kids. Circumstances change, and not always for the better.
TheLastLonelyBakedBeanInTheTin · 27/10/2021 00:16

136000 children in UK living in bnb accommodation which is often just a room per family. Social services do sometimes use housing as a contributory factor in child protection cases, but it can never be the only factor because ultimately it is a side effect of poverty. You cannot take children away for being in shit housing or their families not having enough money. If there parents also abuse or neglect them then of course that's different. But living in cramped conditions and eating from food banks is not neglect. It's poverty, probably destitution, but not abuse or neglect.