XH vs DC phone wars

[MahMahMahMahCorona]

XH keeps threatening to remove DCs phones if he catches them texting me when they're with him. (We have had issues just recently where he cloned their phones and operating some covert surveillance on them even when they were with me 🤦🏼‍♀️).

DC11 & DC10 have been getting more and more distressed by the behaviour their 'D'F is exhibiting: DC10 called me last night at 8.40pm, and had to hang up immediately because his father was furious that he called to speak with me.

When home, DC have access to their phones within "normal" waking hours (apart from at school when I limit their Apps). They play Pokemon Go, and chat with friends whilst gaming, DC11 uses WhatsApp to chat with school friends, and Satchel One for prep - a lot of school work is done with the help of YouTube, PPT presentations, Word etc - so he has access to his phone quite a lot.

XH has always stuck religiously to (mediated) Tuesday / Thursday / Sunday phone calls, and rarely deviates from this timetable. So over the past 4 years, this is what DC have come to expect. I have in the past told XH that mobiles are a two-way thing, however he rarely initiates conversations out of these days, and when he does, it's up to the DC as to whether they respond.

Thing is with XH, nothing is ever good enough no matter what I suggest, and yet he is never forthcoming with a solution. The fact the DC don't contact him regularly is apparently my fault. They don't get back until Tuesday and I know certainly that DC10 is upset.

What more can I do? AIBU to think he is actively damaging the already pretty dire relationship he has with our children, by behaving in this way in front of them? He loves to bully and intimidate those who are smaller / more vulnerable than him (animals included), and has a startling inability to co-parent, so we parallel parent.

They’re old enough for court to listen if they don’t want to go.

If they don’t want to see him let them stop. He’ll go back to court and court will support their choice.

Again - thank you for your responses.

Usually they can manage an alternate weekend - Friday 5pm to Sunday 5pm. It's the longer spells spent with him where his behaviour deteriorates: court implemented a stepped approach to building up contact because of the history, and it seems that by day 4, they struggle. Currently they've been with him since Wednesday. They had (court ordered) two separate weeks over the summer: next summer? It's a fortnight.

Before court it was rarely more than every alternate weekend - he never wanted more contact than that - even over the holidays. 😞

The times he had them for longer they came home and exhibited marked changes in behaviour which were significant enough (after several occasions of the same) for the MASH team to support withholding contact. I have consultant paediatrician reports stating my eldest has an attachment disorder with his father, and that he should have a choice as to whether or not to go. All dismissed in court.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I have a couple of thoughts:

1. I buy stuff for my DC to have at their Dad's to avoid the suitcase thing. If you got them PJs and a couple of sets of clothes to leave there, would he allow them to wash the clothes or do it for them?

1. Phones - definitely a police matter, and SS. This is illegal. If he's cloned phones and is using covert surveillance, you need to be persistent in getting that recognised as a criminal offence by your ex.

1. Hitting - it's assault, whether the family court says it's normal chastisement or not. Keep written records, report to police as an assault every single time. Do not drop it. If there's ever a bruise or mark on the children, photograph it. Go to the GP/A&E to get a record and medical input. You may get a different judge next time. I was told unequivocally that any hitting was never ok, and that it would result in them being removed from exH's care.

Good luck and keep fighting for your DC.

Thank you @HosannainExcelSheets -

I have previously given their father 2 bags full of clothes for the DC, to keep at his home. He assaulted me in the street in front of the children. (I called the police then too). I then got a shitty letter from his solicitor saying never to hand him things in the street again as it's "humiliating". He refuses to wash their clothes and instead they traipse there with clean and return with dirty, sometimes ripped, smoky clothes. Youngest just celebrated his birthday and took his brand new winter coat - I absolutely dread to think what it will look like when they return. New Nike tracksuit bottoms were returned ripped at the knee last time (I don't buy new: these were gifts from grandparents, and the DC choice to take). But yes - I shall work my way through the charity shops and form two new wardrobes which go between the houses. Thank you for the solution. I am all over the place so it's really helpful.

I shall call 111 again - do you think I should wait until the children are home? Then at least I can get the full picture and perhaps the police might visit us here before going there - they attended for a welfare check before, at his home, and my son was devastated as his father had hit him across the front of his thighs, so when the officer asked him to show him the marks, the officer also said "pull your trousers up rather than down" - my son couldn't pull his trousers up high enough (and for safeguarding couldn't pull them down). The officer who attended called me and said to "teach my child not to cry wolf." It was a very unhelpful state of affairs - their dad is a very well spoken man and I think he talked his way out of it. Two different counties as well, so two different police forces. 😞 he's very clever as to where he hits.

OP I sent you a message.

He's already damaged his relationship with his kids and now it's just a waiting game until they are considered mature enough to refuse to see him at all.

Also if your children have electronic devices like iPads and mobile phones and are under 16, particularly under 13, as a parent you are expected to keep an eye on how they are using it. How you do that is up to you.

Finally if any adult is hitting them, regardless of who it is, the individual child themselves needs to tell and show their teachers every single time. Even when I was at school in the late 80s/early 90s safe guarding had started to be done on parents who left bruises and marks.

Thank you @RedMarauder - yes the police said that safeguarding them when in either parents care is vital, however that they take a dim view of child:absent parent conversations being scrutinised, and we know he did this because eldest DC couldn't understand how subjects he and I had discussed on WhatsApp were suddenly being brought up by his father...

DC know i scrutinise their phones as we do it together - plenty a TikTok "link" has been deleted by my thumb of doom, but because we do it together it's a very open dynamic.

@MahMahMahMahCorona you sound like an awesome mum in a very difficult situation.

Honestly, I'd wait it out. Children turn 12 or 13 and start voting with their feet. I've seen it a lot. Dd aged 12 decided she wouldn't go to her father unless he started treating her better. She gave him a last chance and he didn't improve, so she stopped going. We have a court order but it would have taken ages to get to the point of a new case and DD would have been listened to so exH have up. You're so nearly there!

@bibliomania

Honestly, I'd wait it out. Children turn 12 or 13 and start voting with their feet. I've seen it a lot. Dd aged 12 decided she wouldn't go to her father unless he started treating her better. She gave him a last chance and he didn't improve, so she stopped going. We have a court order but it would have taken ages to get to the point of a new case and DD would have been listened to so exH have up. You're so nearly there!

Meanwhile he’s controlling and assaulting them, denying them contact with friends and their mum? She should wait it out??

Thank you @HosannainExcelSheets, I really appreciate it.

I had truly thought a CAO would work well, by removing the high conflict, however sadly XH continues to find ways to make sure the entire "process" is frustrated. It's so very boring - and @bibliomania whilst I don't want to wish away their glorious years, I can't wait until they are 12/13, and can turn around and tell him what for. Having said that - my eldest recently confided in me that he wouldn't let his younger brother go alone, because he is fearful that his father might hurt him during the night. They insisted on sharing a room since their father recently moved house, and my eldest feels such a weight of responsibility bless him. I did ask if he had experienced any such thing - of his little brother being hurt - previously, and he said that he didn't think so. I know he settles him when he has bad dreams 😞

@Cherrysoup - I understand what @bibliomania is saying. As I've said before I presented the court with an entire bundle of supporting documents outlining emotional harm, welfare issues, mental health issues, letters from school, SENCO, play therapist, consultant. In the recitals, the "health and well-being of the children" must remain the priority of both parents at all times.

I would have to return to mediation before applying to court to vary the order and bring all these documents back again. I have contacted the original mediator as that's the first step.

It is so very hard, however, to prove emotional harm. Now that the DC are experiencing this behaviour themselves, we might have a better chance of CAFCASS / court listening to them, but having had the experience I've already had where so much evidence was literally dismissed, i know how hard it is to argue such a case in court. I hope that the mediator might see us again before Christmas which is when they go back to him - for 7 days 😞

Could they be unwell/awaiting tests at Christmas time? Or some kind of reason why they don't have to go.

@Chewieboora - because Covid? PCR tests... 🤔

Ironically they were awaiting PCR results this week and he still collected them. 😬

Yes, just trying to think of a way to stop them going as it just sounds absolutely awful, especially your last update.

While I agree with you, it isn't an outrageous parenting stance to not want a 10 and 11yo to have a phone. Get the dc to leave their phones at yours. It isn't unreasonable to expect them to live by his parenting rules While at his house. Could you agree on fixed times to call the dc when they are with Jim, the same as he does when they are with you?

He hits them. They're scared of him. The eldest worries he will hit the younger.

Having just read the updates - this is not about phones. If he hits them I would be withholding contact and going back to court. Take photos. Contact ss for advice.

It sounds horrendous.
I agree with the poster who said that children need to tell school when they are hit by him, or troubled by his frankly weird behaviour. Every time. The safeguarding team are obliged to keep records of every incident they become aware of. Older child needs to explain that he is having to protect the little one, and is having to settle him after bad dreams, that they are scared to sleep separately.
I think at 10 & 11, their views will be taken into account. But they may be too scared to articulate their views in front of him, or if they know it will get back to him.

Please don't take their phones off them OP - as suggested by the poster above. Those phones are their lifeline. If anything happens to them they need their phones to contact you or the police. I'd actually encourage them to phone 999 if he hits them again. The police might just listen to your poor boys for once.

Sorry I don't have any other advice OP but my heart breaks for you and your boys. My DD went to stay with her dad (my ex) from a very young age and her left her in an upstairs room of a pub while he chatted up the bar maid downstairs. She was 3. And terrified. As soon as she could use a phone I got her one so she could call me or anyone if she was frightened. I don't care what people think about her having a phone so young. She needed one.

my eldest recently confided in me that he wouldn't let his younger brother go alone, because he is fearful that his father might hurt him during the night

That made my blood run cold. The safeguarding team need to know about that.

Thanks all. A lot of food for thought and as always after an extended period, when I know they've been distressed and upset by his behaviour, I now just want them to be home and safe with me.

I won't be removing their phones, and @JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn like your daughter it is their lifeline - I gave my eldest the most basic IMO one when he was 7. I'm so sorry to hear that your daughter has been through similar. In the worst case I shall give them the brick phone I bought when he last got into their phones, so they can call me. I do know however that they play games on their phones so they can literally disappear into another world when they're with him - this way they can hide when they're texting me, but as he's tapped into them again he's evidently seen these messages.

I will also gently talk with them about opening up to trusted adults about mine or their dads behaviour. I will note how much my eldest may have regressed into himself tomorrow when he comes home. If he literally tries to get under / into my skin I'll know it's been horrendous. 😞 they crave physical affection and require a lot of attention when they get back, having been starved of it for so long.

Your further updates are horrific. You do always have the option of just refusing to hand them over and letting him take you to court.

@RestingPandaFace - it's been helpful to be able to write it all down. I didn't feel heard in court, despite the compilation of evidence. Not one bit. It didn't help (and in retrospect I think I regret it) that I asked CAFCASS not to speak to the children - but I had my (valid) reasons at the time.

It has been really helpful to have outsiders perspectives on it all too. It isn't normal, it isn't right. I was so conditioned through my own upbringing and my marriage that I found it very difficult to differentiate normal behaviour from really clearly (to others) not normal. It's very helpful to feel heard here, and I'm going to do something, a lot of things, about it - I just want them home first.

OP I had to sit my DC down and explain to them that they needed to speak to other adults like their teachers and then the CAFCASS Officers as nobody would listen to me specifically if I said ex was hurting the DC and he was saying no and my DC weren’t telling anyone else. Because it looked like I was trying to keep them away from the cunt because he would lie and cry.

In the end my eldest confided in her class teacher and the school SENCO, and then she spoke to CAFCASS & as in your case told them she couldn’t leave her sibling to attend contact without her there to protect her sibling. Your DC was also hysterical during the CAFCASS interview at the thought of being subject to contact without sibling present.

It was several years of fighting tooth and nail and courts accepting ex’s version that I was a bitter ex (I left him btw because he was abusive).

You need to have your reports backed up by GP letters, school letters and get CAFCASS to listen I had to knock on every door repeatedly and beg for help. My DC finally got respite when eldest turned ten and we were put in front of a DV specialist judge (a very rare thing indeed).

You need to have everything recorded and backed up by trusted professionals. Your word and your reports will not be accepted nor will your children's. I’d also advise your dc to just pull down his trousers next time to show the bruising. But to definitely show bruising and marks.

I hate the family courts. They are not equipped to protect children or abused women.