Sexism in sailing club?

[NotJustACigar]

Hi, I'm trying to decide whether to join a sailing club where one instructor seems to be a bit of a misogynist. I did an introductory dinghy sailing course there a few weeks ago and one of the instructors was an ex firefighter. Out of nowhere he kept making all these comments about how women should never have been allowed into the fire service. There were 2 other women on the course - one said nothing, one said she would want a man to save her if she was in a fire and I said that some women were stronger than some men and if a woman was physically strong enough there was no reason she shouldn't be a firefighter!

Up to that point my sailing lesson had been going well but I was nervous. Next time we went out that instructor kept shouting at me that I was doing things wrong and that I needed to calm down. Now it's true I was making mistakes but I was just learning and I do have a nervous disposition...but it seems a bit of a coincidence that it should all turn badly immediately after that conversation!

Now I need to figure out whether to jon that sailing club which I think I want to do because it's the only one in my area and they let you borrow their dinghies free if you're a member. There are loads of other members some of whom I met on the course and all of whom were nice except that one instructor. However it's quite male dominated, the misogynist is good friends with the club leader, and I'd be joining on my own as my husband has no interest in sailing.

So: YANBU to join = go ahead and join and don't let one jerk ruin sailing for you. In this case what attitude do I take when I walk in there alone and feeling vulnerable as new and I encounter him?

YABU = don't be part of a club that values him as a member and figure out some other way to sail

My pal is a firefighter. There were 600 applicants for each training place, she was the only woman selected for that cohort.

Stand your ground, he's bullying you. If it gets worse, the option is to leave but it is unfair.

@girlmom21

It could be a coincidence though I was doing well before and his "calm down" was a rant, not supportive.

Was what you were doing dangerous? Because if it was small mistakes I'd expect support. If they were putting you at serious risk I'd expect a more stern reaction. He's responsible for your safety.

No it wasn't dangerous at all. I didn't capsize but if I had that's normal and part of the training in dinghy sailing. The men on the course did capsize and if we don't capsize by accident at any point we have to do so at the end of the course to learn capsize recovery.

Omg I can’t believe you named the club sport! This is so outing and I now know exactly who you are!

Joking… sorry!!

I would carry on going too, I am part of a sailing club and I find it easy to avoid many of the the members and just sail with the ones I get on with. Once you’re on the water he’ll be out of site.

I’m pretty sure too that the longer you go the more you will realise that others feel the same way about him x

Was what you were doing dangerous? Because if it was small mistakes I'd expect support. If they were putting you at serious risk I'd expect a more stern reaction. He's responsible for your safety.

Meh, unless OP was bumbling into the path of the Dover-Calais ferry what warrants a rant? (And even if she did surely firing up the safety rib and hoiking her out of danger toot sweet rather than standing about ranting is the way forward). When I did a beginners' dinghy course many years ago all of us capsized at some point and most of us did an unplanned gybe at some point as well...in fact IIRC I think we had a session where we had to deliberately "lose control" of the back end so we could experience what a sudden, accidental gybe feels like and how fast you have to move, and we could understand better what causes it.

Dig around on the club's website, see if they have a diversity policy or anything in their Constitution regarding diversity, See if you can talk to other women in the club, see how they find it.

If you do decide to join and this behaviour persisted, all instructors are registered with the RYA and are bound by a code of conduct, as is the sailing club if they are RYA accredited and all forms of discrimination are taken very seriously. If you joined and this continues you can make a complaint, anonymously if need be, to the club council in the first instance and then to the RYA if the issue is not resolved.
It's in the clubs interest to stop this behavior as it can prevent people from joining and a lot of sailing clubs are in a precarious position financially at the moment and simply cannot afford to loose potential new members. They certainly would not want a complaint made to the RYA as this can affect their accreditation and the club would have to show clear measures had been put in place to stop and prevent this behaviour.

Is there anything wrong with a man admitted that males are generally bigger and stronger than women?

The pish that men and women are equals is what has allowed men into women's sports and for Louise Hubbard a transwoman deny an actual woman a place at the Olympics.
And for women to be seriously hurt in other sports, rugby and boxing.

I said that some women were stronger than some men and if a woman was physically strong enough there was no reason she shouldn't be a firefighter

That's what the OP said. Your reading comprehension skills need work.

Depending on the sailing club he might move on at the start of next season. That happened a lot to people who were hard to work with at the sailing club I used to be office manager for.

Personally I'd pick up a cheap Laser/Topper/Mirror/Oppi and join another club. Not worth putting up with that shit.

If you're just learning and not racing yet then older equipment will do you fine and I can guarantee others will be willing to help you out.

OK then what we're his reasoning for feeling the fire service should be men only other than strength?

My experience of sailing 20+ years ago was that sailing clubs were indeed the patriarchy’s last stand. I had a very smart company car, and most members refused point blank to believe that it was mine! I was sailing when Shirley Robertson won 2 Olympic golds and Ellen MacArthur sailed solo around the world and you would not believe the disgusting cr*p that men spouted about them - on online forums and in person. And that was before you even got near the bar.

However…I have recently started sailing again and I’m pleased to report that things seem to be different. I think it’s partly a new generation, partly that sailing participation has dropped off and so clubs have to be more welcoming.

Perhaps you could mention it “en passant” to someone at the club - “Do you have many women who are active members?” sort of thing. As pp said, sailing instructors frequently move on anyway. And you probably won’t even see him on the water.

@Lockdownbear

OK then what we're his reasoning for feeling the fire service should be men only other than strength?

His reason was that women aren't strong enough and can't hack it. However in reality women have to meet the same physical standards as men to in order to join- there is no lowering of standards for either strength or endurance for women.

Frankly I would only bother with this if there isn't another sailing club nearby. If it is the only place you can go ask one of the female members if this guy's always a problem and how they handle it.

What he thinks about female firefighters or why, is irrelevant. He should not have started that conversation while teaching (or entertained it, if begun by others) - that is the very point.

Starting it while teaching women was particularly stupid and inappropriate of him. 'Here I am teaching you the basics of a physical sport. BTW I think women as an entire sex class are incapable of performing many physical tasks that men can and I just wanted to let you know that I am one of those men who looks down upon and despises women, even when they are as good as men at tasks that generally better suit a male physique'.

Then getting arsey at you, because you didn't agree with his assessment of your inherent inferiority.

You were paying him to teach you. He brought his personal issues to work and allowed his emotions to run out of control. As a result he failed to deliver a session of the standard and quality you'd been led to expect and had paid for.

You were actually paying to be shouted at by this testerical fool.

You could quite reasonably ask for some money back, or for a replacement training session with someone capable of doing the job professionally.

Join, be friendly with everyone and shit in his sandwich every time he says something sexist, with a big ole grin on your face.

I’d join, stick with the sailing lessons and show them just how good you are by being the best sailor you can be! Many activities of this type tend to be male-oriented, but I was raised as a bit of a tomboy by my dad (last child born - all girls 🙄), so I can shoot, sail etc. I suppose that I’ve probably been lucky that I’ve never experienced any sexism doing this as far as I’m aware, and recently joined a classic car club with DH, where the all-male members were all delighted and said “we want more women to join!”. You can only change by being there and making it more welcoming to other women to join. However, I think that the issue with this instructor shouting at you is a separate one. It is never acceptable to shout at learners, people learn at different rates and I don’t know of a single person who learns more effectively if they are being shouted at. You are after all paying for this - would you accept your language tutor or leader of a cake decorating class shouting at you? I would have a quick word with the commodore about the instructor’s behaviour. He’ll probably be horrified, but the onus is on him to sort it out.

As someone who did A LOT of sailing. I can tell you that sailing and shouting come hand in hand sometimes to be honest. It's not a situation where you have time to sit down for quiet heart to hearts unfortunately. But you're right he doesn't have to be sexist about it.

@wallysally

As someone who did A LOT of sailing. I can tell you that sailing and shouting come hand in hand sometimes to be honest. It's not a situation where you have time to sit down for quiet heart to hearts unfortunately. But you're right he doesn't have to be sexist about it.

I know for a fact that my instructors would have apologised in a "hey you ok, sorry if it scared/upset you" and debriefed any shouting afterwards "I was concerned because XYZ was putting you/him/us in danger, next time be mindful that ABC. However you did 123 really well so great job", particularly with a beginner.

write to the RYA.
This is not acceptable.

Can you go down on a club night and get a feel for it? In our local sailing club there were definitely a few sexist instructors and members but a lot of people were great and they were actively encouraging women to participate. I did have to give them stick when they asked only female members to help out with catering for a club event but otherwise was able to avoid the idiots largely. I think you find a few sexist idiots in any sport - I instruct in another sport and have had some issues there. If the instructor was shouting at you during lessons I would let the club know. That isn't acceptable and if they are trying to get new members isn't going to help.

I did a beginner’s dinghy course years ago. I was utterly hopeless, made loads of mistakes and was the only participant who didn’t pass at the end. Nothing but encouragement - I was urged to come back for an extra session to pass the course - and while there were no ‘heart to hearts’, there was absolutely no shouting or aggression either. Our instructor was firm about safety, but affable and relaxed about everything else - mistakes expected and responded to with humour. I can’t imagine what you’d be doing at this level that would endanger anyone (bar wilful stuff like refusing to wear a life jacket or ignoring the instructor - certainly not mistakes) or warrant that sort of response.

Shouting may well go hand in hand with sailing when it would be reasonable to expect a certain level or if there is indeed risk, but neither of those should apply to a beginner who isn’t acting like a reckless prat.

I don’t think this looks great for the club at all.

Definitely keep going with the sailing - its brilliant! but do see if there is another club nearby. I'm pretty landlocked but there are 4 clubs within a 20 minute drive with reservoirs/ rivers etc.

My club runs training and racing for new sailors so I'm of the point of view that instructors are still needed even when you've finished the course, but they should be helpful and increase your confidence.