To thank you all

[happinessischocolate]

I've just read a story about a woman being raped in a train and people stood by and did nothing. Yahoo mail probably so probably also USA but still...

This could destroy my faith in humanity if it wasn't for the fact I read Mumsnet board regularly and know there are so many people who would have stood up and stopped this!

It astounds me how people stand by. My instincts wouldn't let me! I wouldn't even think! I know I'd be there. I'm a big believer in it takes one person to move and then others will, and I know I would move and do SOMETHING probably feet first with a big fuck off

People do get involved. In the paper today there was a story about a man raping a woman, a man stepped in, put him in a chokehold (looks like he got a few punches in too) then rescued the woman.

Not all of human kind is bad. Some people do get involved, some people would help

Tbh I think it’s easy to say you would do this/ that from behind a screen but I’ve been in horrible situations where not a single person has said or done anything.

You know what everyone claims they’d stage a heroic intervention
Everyone thinks in WWII they’d have been in the resistance and fight nazis etc
This is well known psychological phenomenon, bystanders effect. The greater the amount of onlookers the slower the observer is to raise the alarm
1964 Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death on her doorstep observed by many onlookers
The presence of others adds an assumption someone else will raise alarm or intervene. There is a dilution of responsibility everyone assumes Someone else will raise alarm
Fear immobilises people too

I don’t necessarily believe your big bombastic you’d be right in there statement
It depends on context, risk assessment,context , cohesive etc

I wouldn't intervene but I would dial 999. I'm shocked nobody did

To be honest, I'm not sure they would. I've seen plenty of posts over the years where MNers have said they witnessed some type of aggression but did nothing about it.

@Sunshinealligator it’s the proximity of others during a critical event that’s problematic and reduces likelihood of intervention. A single sole observer it’s a straight choice eg intervene or not. Other people there , it is not so clear cut

@GreenLunchBox

I wouldn't intervene but I would dial 999. I'm shocked nobody did

the Staff did 🌸

I simply do not believe people stood and watched or purposefully ignored the rape of a woman in public.

I disagree with the comparison to WW11, where people are groomed for years to gradually accept behaviour against certain groups ( similar to what's happening now!)

And yes I would intervene, because I have, it's just instinct! If it was a large group attacking one person, yes I can understand the reluctance, but one on one, with more people standing by than attacking! No, no way. I would be in there, no thought to person safety, just no! But I know it's my personal instinct. I'm not trying to be heroic! I just don't think, and I don't and can't understand people who's instinct doesn't work like that.

Upper Darby, Philadelphia it’s reported onlookers didn’t intervene
It depends what the investigation uncovers , what does CCTV reveal etc.
Did they know they were observing a rape?

People have drowned in public pools surrounded by swimmers
Sometimes people literally don’t see a critical event as critical. They believe there is another explanation

I was having this conversation with my husband the other day, before I was a mother I would and have intervened in a heartbeat, its the kind of person I naturally am. However now I have my children to consider, it's a much harder decision. Can I really risk my safety when I'm responsible for 2 very young children, one of whom is reliant on my body for nutrition. If they were with me, I wouldn't dream of it, I'd want to remove them from the situation as fast as I could.
Of course I'd try and get help, call the police or discreetly pull an alarm, but, and I'm ashamed to say, physical intervention or attracting attention from an aggressor just isn't something I could do lightly anymore.

Bystander effect is big thing.

People more likely to act when only them, or a couple of people there.

More and people take their cue from others, don't want to act first. If no one does quickly then.. sort of immobilised everyone.

Well known phenomenon.

Also everyone does like to think they'd act. When something happens though. What they think and what they do can be very different.

I would and have acted - different sorts of things. But I know that I have unusually low thought for myself/ my mortality etc and that's not necessarily a good thing.

The sort of people who act before thinking are often that way. And it is without thinking. Think and most people talk themselves out of it esp if bystander thing happening as well.

This story is so upsetting though. I mean obviously.

@NiceGerbil

Bystander effect is big thing.

People more likely to act when only them, or a couple of people there.

More and people take their cue from others, don't want to act first. If no one does quickly then.. sort of immobilised everyone.

Well known phenomenon.

Also everyone does like to think they'd act. When something happens though. What they think and what they do can be very different.

I would and have acted - different sorts of things. But I know that I have unusually low thought for myself/ my mortality etc and that's not necessarily a good thing.

The sort of people who act before thinking are often that way. And it is without thinking. Think and most people talk themselves out of it esp if bystander thing happening as well.

This story is so upsetting though. I mean obviously.

That ^^ If you're in a situation and everyone is frozen then use stuff like "man in the blue shirt, yes you, ring 999/get water/whatever" and people are more likely to respond They want to help, don't know what to do or freeze and think someone else will help

However now I have my children to consider, it's a much harder decision.

I get this actually. I'm a single parent of 2, when I've stood up in the past it was prior to having my kids, I think you may have a point and in the last 18 years I may have thought twice, but not everyone on that train had kids, surely.

Now my kids are teenagers I've paid for them to learn self defence, they can knock a knife from someone's hand and know how to attack (in self defence) before then running the hell away. Hopefully that'll also give them the knowledge of how and when to get involved in other people's defence.

This goes back to wear I was saying about generally those who jump in just react. No thinking.

Well it’s wonderful that you’re such a selfless person OP, but the bystander effect is an actual thing

@EspressoDoubleShot

Upper Darby, Philadelphia it’s reported onlookers didn’t intervene It depends what the investigation uncovers , what does CCTV reveal etc. Did they know they were observing a rape?

People have drowned in public pools surrounded by swimmers
Sometimes people literally don’t see a critical event as critical. They believe there is another explanation

I agree. It's possible that the onlookers didn't know what was going on. People sit on trains, stare out of the window or stare at their phone screens with headphones on.

The rape may have happened without those people knowing , you can't make judgements without knowing exactly what happened. From my own experience I'd say that rape isn't always obvious / noisy/ dramatic. It can happen very quickly and quietly with nothing obvious going on for people to see .

@user1473878824

Well it’s wonderful that you’re such a selfless person OP, but the bystander effect is an actual thing

I don't think this fight instinct comes from a place of being heroic or selfless, I think it comes from anger, from having been threatened myself and it brings out the fight the fuckers instinct in me.

Maybe that's it, people who haven't been threatened or attacked don't see it, they're not alert to it, and don't have an inbuilt response when it does happen.

And also some people who have been threatened or attacked don't get involved be cause it didn't go well for them previously.

I think people do often respond. The bystander effect is when everyone thinks someone is already dealing with it, or thinks because others are ignoring it, that it’s OK. Or that someone is drunk.

I always intervene. Always. Even though sometimes it puts me at risk. I now have to stop as I’m usually with my kids, but I observe and if anything is untoward I phone either the police if non emergency but concerning, or 999. Every time. It felt really cringey at first, but I always think, but what if someone is really ill/getting hurt.

I do this when I see anyone fighting. Anyone. I never just think ‘it’s just… ‘ it would be someone’s son and one punch could be it. I do this when someone’s lying on the street. I do this when I see potential bullying with kids. I do this when I see a woman (or man) being harassed in any way.

Everyone of us could and should.

Everyone of us could and should intervene is the amongst worst advice I’ve ever seen on MN @NCBlossom

Let’s really think about that statement. Could? As in stage a physical intervention?What if perpetrators are bigger? Have weapons? You’re outnumbered?You are alone? The safe intervention Is actually call police. Maintain a safe distance. Raise the alarm

Should? That’s a different construct. Should is the the morality the what if. Again when it safe to do so.

Most of us who live in cities & towns have seen brawls and fights. The police advice would be summon assistance not pile on in. Potentially you also get hurt too or it escalates

I get the sentiment it’s someone son, daughter, child and it’s really important to retain that humanity and want to do something. However the something doesn’t have to be a direct physical intervention. I don’t judge people who don’t intervene in breaking up a fight as in the moment it’s scary and threatening and in fact it’s an accurate risk assessment.

@EspressoDoubleShot you didn’t actually read my post did you… so annoying when people just bloody skim read and then come back with a loooong diatribe.

I didn’t say intervention had to be physical. In fact I explicitly said that now I no longer physically intervene as I’m always with my kids, but I always observe and always phone the police if I’m in any doubt whatsoever.

Phoning for professional help is a good intervention.

Walking by is not.

I actually did read your post I simply disagreed with you So your ire is misplaced

@EspressoDoubleShot what did you disagree with then? The point that I made that any intervention (not just ‘physical) including phoning the police was something we should all do, or the point that any intervention including police (not just ‘physical) was something we should all do?

So you disagree that we should phone the police / observe / phone someone / tell someone?

Which I said in both posts.

My daughter was being assaulted in the car park at Bluewater in Kent, thankfully two lads intervened. I've since moved 300 miles away from Kent. It's safer where we now live.

Gosh that’s awful, how is your daughter now? (you don’t need to answer if it’s too intrusive)