Private school or grammar - which is better?

[Annoyed32]

Help clear up a discussion I’ve had with someone. They think private is better as the most successful partners in their firm come from private schools. I think grammar are better as they seem to be more selective. I suppose I haven’t considered the facilities. I went to state comprehensive so have no experience of either but in my mind grammar schools seem to be more prestigious and harder to get in. Anyone got experience of both?

I think you are probably over simplifying.

My experience of both types of schools (as student and parent) is that smart kids will do fine anywhere. Private schools will have the most benefit for mediocre students. See the cabinet for an example of what they can do for someone very average.

It is generally harder to get into a grammar school as you have to pass challenging tests. There will also be entrance requirements for private schools but basically money talks and if you have it someone will happily take it to educate your child

If it's a grammar area then the private schools are second options for those who didn't get in. In a non grammar area then it's probably less clear cut.

It's impossible to generalise. Every school is different. Some grammar schools will be better than some private schools, and some private schools will be better than some grammars. And some state comprehensives will be better than either.

Most bright kids will do well anywhere. Parental support is probably the biggest single factor that makes a difference.

Depends what you mean by better. I work in a prep on the edge of a grammar schools area. It is much harder to get in to grammar than any of the privates near us - most private schools are not full at the moment and have dropped their standards in recent years as they can’t afford to be choosy. We have kids who fail the 11+ get in to private, never the other way round. Is expect grammar to get better results potentially as they start with a higher achieving cohort (academically).

But state grammars will still have 30 in a class and be subject to tight budgets. Sports and music offerings are likely to not be as good as at private. Private will offer a more rounded education, probably.

Totally depends on the private schools and grammars you are talking about. Eton is much more prestigious and difficult to get into than a Kent grammar, but a London grammar like QE Boys is more competitive and more prestigious than some ordinary independent. It totally depends on the individual schools. It's not right to say that all grammars are more competitive and more prestigious than all private schools, no.

Doesnt it depend on what you mean by 'better'? Many private schools are selective based on ability plus they are also effectively selective based on income.

All schools can only work with the students they have and ultimately cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. However, IME some private schools are good at turning out very well presented sow's ears.

Making partner in professions is a lot about 'fitting in'. People also select people like themselves. This is why higher levels in organisations are essentially male, middle aged and white. If previous partners have been privately educated then this will also be part of the 'fit'.

@Annoyed32 the most successful partners who went to private schools will be using more than just intelligence and exam results to make their way up the ladder. They will be able to use contacts and networks to sell their services which will help them along the road to promotions.

I firmly believe that a grammar school will give you a better rounded education and prepare you for life. My DD was at Uni about 12 years ago and said you could tell the bright grammar school school students were more independent than the spoon fed privately educated ones.

@ouchmyfeet

It is generally harder to get into a grammar school as you have to pass challenging tests. There will also be entrance requirements for private schools but basically money talks and if you have it someone will happily take it to educate your child

Not always true. A friend of mine sent his DCs to a super selective private school. Their third child didnt have the academic ability of his siblings so they were asked to remove him. They were full fee payers.

Who cares?

Which school is the best for your child? Could (shock horror) be in neither of those categories.

I would hope that someone who works in professional services (which I deduce from the reference to Partners) might have sufficient critical thinking to realise what an entire less pointless and over simplistic question that is. This has no doubt been planted to spark yet another state v private debate…

Better for whom? A decent private school can help an average kid achieve their best potential. The same child, if they managed to get into a grammar school will more likely crush under the academic expectations and achieve far less. Really clever kids will do well regardless.

Depends on which grammar and depends on which private school.

There are no grammar schools in my area but extremely selective (super selective) indies.

@Santastuckincustoms

If it's a grammar area then the private schools are second options for those who didn't get in. In a non grammar area then it's probably less clear cut.

This really isn’t a given.

It depends on the area the local private school to us is a high performing boarding school. The nearest secondary school is selective by high priced postcode, whilst the second nearest is a high performing faith school. We don't have grammar schools. For us going private would be a waste of money as the results are almost exactly the same and all sent similar numbers to oxbridge. The extracurricular at the private are better but DS is already settled into his clubs so wouldn't use them.

If we didn't have access to the faith school system or couldn't move into the catchment for the other secondary, private would be worth it as the nearest school to our current house (sold) is a dump.

I always think the private school results should be compared with the nearest local comp in a high priced area. A lot of attainment is because the kids who attend are supported at home and academically able, fee paying schools select these students by a parents ability to pay, decent state schools do it by postcode.

Try sitting the entrance exams for Habs Boys/Girls, Westminster, St Paul's, Eton etc etc and the say that private schools are not academically selective. Total rubbish.

In our area I would say the grammar schools get the better results .

@XelaM the Westminster exams are really tough!
I would say that money/status does talk though. You're not telling me that Prince Harry did better in his Eton entrance exam than all the others who may have been rejected!

They think private is better as the most successful partners in their firm come from private schools.

The reasons why someone might become "successful" in a law or other professional service firm are less to do with the quality of education they received and more to do with whether they looked and sounded like the hiring partner when being interviewed, and have the cultural capital to be at ease with well off professional clients, understanding references to traditionally upper class sports and hobbies, sharing anecdotes about certain types of holiday location. Money loves money, these people revel in connections, they like bumping into someone who was at prep school with their sister or boarded with their cousin,its a small world and they like that. It tends to mean that even the "rich but thick" don't fall far as they do well in sales type roles that rely heavily on these connections.

In terms of academic success, a decent selective grammar will offer the same benefits. However it probably won't have that sense of network, the old boys club, the loyalty to those from the same background.

Surely the ‘better’ one is whatever suits your child in the most appropriate way you see fit? Whether that be to fit with their confidence or academic level or other personality trait?

It depends. The school experience includes the academic teaching, but also the extra curricular opportunities, the ethos it installs, how it develops the pupil as a person, the network of contacts you create, etc

There are private schools that take anyone and don’t necessarily provide challenge. There are distant grammars that people rightly decline in favour of a very goof comp. There are highly selective examples of each that require excellent test results, teach extremely well, and have the A-Level results and high end university admissions you’d expect as a consequence.

I don’t know what industry your conversation was about, but making partner isn’t usually just about your A-Level results. And probably not everything about making partner is fair or meritocratic. Some of those underlying helpful factors — like parental connections or wealth or experience to pass on — correlate with going to private school but may make more difference than the school itself, so the same kid with the same parents may have made partner all the same by going to a similarly good grammar rather than their paid-for school.

Surely, for law firm it will depend mainly where you went to university.
It will make a difference if you went to Eton for school and will be better than a Kent grammar.
But QE vs St Paul’s maybe similar