To think that wages have gone down A LOT in the past 20 years or so

[Poetrypatty]

I'm looking at some roles where the amount offered is probably what would have been offered for that job, or possibly even less, than what you'd have got paid in about 1999. And that's often for graduates where you wouldn't have needed a degree back then and you do now. That's not even taking into account inflation or house prices.

I'm talking started and mid level office roles in particular rather than NMW jobs. I do think at the higher end wages have gone up, managers etc. For those who are old enough to remember, AIBU?

Cetainly a lot of hoops. Im applying for roles on less than I used to earn and they are less keen to train you and more keen to see you can already do the job...

Posted before I was done! App doing weird and wonderful things tonight!

Housing prices also goes back to thatcher era of course but has been perpetuated by continuing corrupt policies and practices politically.

This is informed by the fact many mps - of all parties - have their snouts in the housing market trough and so are motivated to keep housing prices high.

When you look into it those MPs rarely if ever vote for measures that would address the housing crisis or even give tenants more rights!

My dd is at uni now. I keep telling her once she's graduated she's better off emigrating! The career she wants to go into can be done anywhere in the world so I say to her while she's no ties go for it.

This is the set of political circumstances and decision making that causes brain drain!

Equally, getting made redundant as an experienced employee (to be replaced with younger & cheaper new hires) is pretty common too

That used to be/is supposed to be illegal isn't it? Because it's not a true redundancy and the employer would need cause to get rid of the original employee

Not that employees have any back up either!

People really need to be joining and using unions more

I also think employers are asking for more hours now than they used to

Yes I've noticed this too

@Badbadbunny and yet the bankers who caused the crash - like a certain mr sunak - are doing very nicely thank you!

You mention COVID, there's also brexit of course.

A few years back dd and I were job hunting at the same time (turns out I was being over optimistic health wise!) and I was shocked at how demanding employers were being for pretty crappy contract offers. But I also noticed what a HUGE employers market it was as we were mostly applying online and some of the sites have a ticker showing how many had applied for each job on that site, then you account for the fact same jobs advertised in multiple places which was often really obvious even if the name of the employer wasn't stated. There were hundreds sometimes almost 1000 applicants per job! Insane

I'm old (49) and have worked in various roles/industries all over the country so have a fair grasp on average pay for most of them and what employers were asking for - often for nmw - was bloody cheeky!

Several were expecting MINIMUM undergraduate degree, 5 years experience in an equivalent role, with long hours etc for nmw!

Total piss take! And quite honestly the jobs were not of a level that required a graduate!

I can remember when eg supermarket shelf stacking or checkout work all you needed was GCSEs in maths and English and a willingness to graft. Now they want 5 GCSEs minimum and at least 2 years recent experience!

Crazy

@Crumble012 Labour started denying their working class roots in the late 90's too

@Crumble012

I’ve always wondered why Labour (supposedly the champions of the normal worker) have pushed ahead with virtually unfettered immigration in they way they did and still do? An infinite pool of labour = depressed salaries and greater pressures on housing, healthcare, education, the roads etc. The BBC complains about a 20 year high in job vacancies caused by Brexit and how, shock horror, employers are now having to offer ‘higher salaries’ to tempt workers. How utterly dreadful .

They don't accept that very obvious equation any more. And how dare you diss immigrants, you bigot, don't you know everyone in the world has it worse than us, all due solely to Britain's imperial past, and so we need to keep on giving our work away forever (while our elites who really benefitted rake it in again)? (sarcasm, for internet clarity)

My dd is at uni now. I keep telling her once she's graduated she's better off emigrating!

She really is & tell my kids the same. Add in the ageing population the burden on the young is not worth it now.

@dongke exactly! Uk is going to the dogs! Sooner she gets out the better!

Several were expecting MINIMUM undergraduate degree, 5 years experience in an equivalent role, with long hours etc for nmw!

It's outrageous really isn't it what some of these jobs are asking for the money. As pp said they don't seem to want to train people up any more, very hard for people to get their foot in the door where experience is always needed.

Sad to see people are feeling it's so bad that they need to tell the dcs to emigrate

Saw a job advertised today wanting an administrator, with relevant graduate degree and at least 2 years experience of running specific projects, and line management experience of running teams and willing to travel and work outside regular hours, for National Living Wage.

It’s ridiculous

The fact that salaries generally, eg an accountancy graduate starting salary was the same in 2010 as it is now is shocking.

My first job as a graduate I was paid £17,000 p/a. In 2018. Wages are not keeping up with inflation or the cost of living at all.

I'm looking for a new job and I'm constantly astounded by the amount of and level of experience and qualifications that are required for such low salaries.

Agree with tax credits being a cause.

Government intervention on things like that just subsidises low wages. Just as subsidising buyer incentives for first time buyers increases house prices for the whole market. It’s like they don’t understand basic economics or something…

I wonder if the minimum wage is also a factor. I just looked it up and that started in 1999. It seems to be just 'the wage' for so many jobs now rather than being a minimum, and perhaps it has driven overall wages down. Jobs like admin requiring training and experience (and a degree! wtf) were never meant to be covered by NMW.

My dd is at uni now. I keep telling her once she's graduated she's better off emigrating!

I tell my three the same, all at secondary school now.
My eldest wants to do medicine so that's a lot of years here before she can leave but being a doctor will be her ticket out. She's not great with languages unfortunately Don't know what the other two want to do, emigrating is so much harder now though, they need a skill in demand.

@Neron

YANBU. I also think employers are asking for more hours now than they used to. When I started my city job, it was 35 hours, then up to 37.5 hours, and when I left to retrain, 40 hour contracts seemed to be the norm.

Yes, I've noticed that recent job ads have been 8.30am to 5pm, or 9am to 5.30pm

Sneaky way to get more out of your staff, and not good for anyone with children at school / childcare

@DespairingHomeowner

Not my field, but my understanding is that salaries for newly qualified lawyers have increased quite a lot in last 15-20 years

www.chambersstudent.co.uk/law-firms/law-firm-salaries-compared

I’d be interested to hear which other sectors have seen good salary growth and if that’s for early career or experienced hires

I know some lawyers

I think salaries for NQ are higher than they used to be, but for more qualified staff, the salaries have stagnated. A member of my family in his 40's earns much the same as he did 10 years ago

Yes agree - I remember in 2010/11 the organisation I worked for restructured offering voluntary redundancy to those who fell in the officer / middle management and senior manager role. Or taking a lower position and pay.
My role at the time paid approx £40k and as with all the middle managers was deleted and the work split between the officer and senior manager role. They increased these salaries by about £1K and then also created a new graduate entry post on 21k.

It was cost saving exercise and I have never regained that salary since. But my work now is far more complex although a different sector.

The salaries from the roles offered to us from what I hear through ex colleagues has also remained almost static.

I recall a job I had in 2005 that paid 60k and a month ago, I happened to see the same role advertised at the same place paying 65k.

@Gettingthereslowly2020

I'm looking for a new job and I'm constantly astounded by the amount of and level of experience and qualifications that are required for such low salaries.

I agree There was a time when you could see roles the next step up knowing you had the core experience, and were taking on new or extra duties. Now it seems Like it's just moving sideways and the salaries are all the same.

I agree.

When I graduated in 2012 most graduate roles were offering £18-22k. Similar grad roles now are offering the same.

However they expect you to walk in ready to hit the ground running. And ask for 2 years experience that you can only get from working for free or for 'expenses'.

People I know who stayed in the company are now on around £25k, with 10years experience, and more responsibility. I've moved around smaller companies, done training, and taken on a lot more responsibility. I reckon I have just about managed to keep up with inflation but I don't have the job security they do.

I thought about this the other day when I remembered that when I first moved to London c2000 it cost me £1 to get the bus one way to work. That same price is now £1.55.

I've also been casting around looking to go back to work with a career change so looking round at more entry level stuff. Salaries seems to be broadly similar, and certainly not anywhere near 50% more!

@Kendodd

My dd is at uni now. I keep telling her once she's graduated she's better off emigrating!

I tell my three the same, all at secondary school now.
My eldest wants to do medicine so that's a lot of years here before she can leave but being a doctor will be her ticket out. She's not great with languages unfortunately Don't know what the other two want to do, emigrating is so much harder now though, they need a skill in demand.

Yes I agree with this - my youngest wants to go to Uni abroad and I am happy that even at his age he has a good idea that there are other real options.

I also agree that the move to a 40 hour week is a complete pain with childcare.

Especially as;

1. They 'make' you have an hours lunch that 9 times out of 10 you work through. So you're in the office 8am-5pm, 9am-6pm, or 8.30am-5.30pm.
2. Expect you to be logged and dialled into a meeting at 8am, on to a computer that takes a good 5-10 minutes to start up.
3. Book meeting in to finish at 6pm, that inevitably over run and then ask you to 'quickly send a follow up email' afterwards.
4. You need to get to the nursery, but can't afford childcare or housing in the city you work in.

I just can't apply for those jobs, all the local nurseries are 8-6pm, and all the skilled jobs are a 20-30minute commute away. So even if it was acceptable to walk through the door at 8.30am and walk out the door at 5.30pm. I'd be cutting it too fine.

I think starting salaries have increased a bit in my industry (entertainment, hospitality, graduate, london), starting salaries then were 16-19k, pre-minimum wage. But only up to 20-24k over a 20 year period. On my starting salary I could have got a mortgage on a 3 bed property in London (although I didn’t have any interest in that age 21), travel costs were affordable, I felt quite rich.