AIBU to ask how you get along with consultants if you work in the public sector?

Astitichintimesaveswine · 13/10/2021 18:50

Can't you just push back and say no, I'm too busy to make these minor changes?

Namechange600 · 13/10/2021 18:52

Speak to your civil servant line manager and explain what you’ve said here

Hardbackwriter · 13/10/2021 18:56

I've done 14 hour days to get it to where it is and I'm still now getting messages "can you just move these arrows 2mm to the right? Can you put this heading in italics?" And other meaningless things like this.

If things are this minor it surely takes her longer to comment on it than it would for her to just change it! I agree that you should just say you don't have time to deal with these minor matters. If she really feels it must be done then it could be delegated elsewhere.

PearlclutchersInc · 13/10/2021 19:02

Are there branding rules you should be following that are quite strict - if something is going to be presented or delivered in some way and if everyone's 2 mm weren't quite right it would end up looking wrong?

PrescriptionOnlyMedicine · 13/10/2021 19:08

That sounds like you’re being micro managed.

If someone prepared a document for me and the aesthetics bothered me that much, I’d edit it myself as it would be quicker.

Dozer · 13/10/2021 19:11

What do you mean ‘informally managed’? Is she in a full time role senior to you?

Cornettoninja · 13/10/2021 19:12

Some people can get carried away with themselves.

If the document is genuinely done then I would tell her that I will have time to make any final edits on x day but other work now needs to take priority. Emphasise the ‘final edits’ because she sounds like she’s never going to be completely happy with it tbh.

Suzysuz · 13/10/2021 19:21

I thought as a contractor/consultant they can't manage you HR wise so are you just reporting to her on this specific piece of work?
I'd definitely be diplomatically pushing back above her or to your actual line manager, what a waste of time (as someone mentioned above it's taking more time for her to email you on these things - on their mega consultant rate no doubt) and what this time is costing in your own G7 salary to do these changes - I honestly think a lot of consultants, in my experience in gov, make such a bigger issue of things as a way to try and keep / justify their own role....

Autumnbaths · 13/10/2021 19:42

@KoreyBay18

I'm honestly at breaking point. Informally managed by a consultant who is in from the private sector for a set period. Her expectations are fucking ridiculous.

I've spent 3 days working on a piece of work that is ALWAYS "not quite right". I've done 14 hour days to get it to where it is and I'm still now getting messages "can you just move these arrows 2mm to the right? Can you put this heading in italics?" And other meaningless things like this.

All the information and content has been perfectly accurate since yesterday morning but we hours later and I'm still wasting time making it aesthetically perfrct for my Senior Civil Servant who I KNOW just does not care. She cares about the content and knowing the right information. I appreciate the consultant wants it to be perfect but omg it is such a waste of tax payers money to have someone spending a whole working day moving things 2mm to the left or right. I'm not a junior member of staff either, I'm a Grade 7.

AiBU to be hacked off by this? I just want to crack on with the actual important work I have to do (and am gunna have to do a 60 hour week this week to catch up on!)

We run a small consultancy firm and that margin crap - we get that from clients sometimes too after sending us a last minute change forcing us to work all weekend. Generally when we are not happy with one of the client team’s drafting we do it ourselves in an attempt to keep standards at our level and not cause agro, but that’s our culture we do the 60-80 hour weeks when the client’s team can’t meet the standard. I could name a few consultancies who have form for treating the client team like shit but it’s generally not a policy that will get you invited back! No idea what a grade 7 is but the civil servants we have had a lot of dealings with, have a reputation for not being great at report writing in a concise manner. Consultants don’t like to waste words or paper - no one at board level has time to read it. Push back first, if that doesn’t work speak to your manager but depending on the sector - consultants are in big demand - like all skilled people since bloody brexit and your manager might be desperate enough for their help and throw you under the bus.

Original poster

KoreyBay18 · 14/10/2021 14:51

By informally managing me, I mean that she has been brought in as a team resource whilst we recruit for a permanent Grade 6. The G6 will be my manager, but as she is doing the work of this post she manages me day to day. I do have a CS line manager but he is very removed from the work I am doing (but supportive in a pastoral sense).

After working til 10pm last night (with a 7am start), and her getting arsey when I had to end a call (promising to call her back) at 9.15pm because my 4yo has woken up and I needed to settle him, I've decided to stop my condensed hours. She hated that I was doing them anyway so gladly agreed that I can pick up working Fridays again - so I sent an email round to the team saying with immediate effect I'm back to 5 days a week 9-5. I think she's going to find it a huge shock when I'm no longer available to work in the evenings though...

OP posts:

Whatafustercluck · 14/10/2021 15:38

I didn't think you could be managed by a consultant, because they'd need to be line managed by someone up the managerial chain and they can't be due to IR35 regs.

If someone came back to me with such minor amends I'd give them editor access and suggest it would be quicker for them to make changes directly themselves.

Whatafustercluck · 14/10/2021 15:41

Also, your CS line manager needs to step up, being too removed from your staff is not a valid excuse. Tell him the long hours are destroying your work life balance and having a negative impact on your wellbeing.

JassyRadlett · 14/10/2021 15:47

Are you talking consultant as in temporarily in-house from a consultancy firm, or consultant

Either way, they really vary. On some things, core to their main competencies, consultancy firms can be amazing and add huge value but I’ve also had occasions where their work has been very basic but they can turn out a beautiful slide deck that is very light on strategic content and you find yourself wondering why you’re paying a £3k day rate when being able to use in-house resource would deliver a better (but less pretty) result.

Freelancers will vary wildly. A lot comes down to the management they are getting of their work.

DaisyNGO · 14/10/2021 15:51

@Namechange600

Speak to your civil servant line manager and explain what you’ve said here

This is what I would do.

CSJobseeker · 14/10/2021 15:53

@Whatafustercluck

I didn't think you could be managed by a consultant, because they'd need to be line managed by someone up the managerial chain and they can't be due to IR35 regs.

If someone came back to me with such minor amends I'd give them editor access and suggest it would be quicker for them to make changes directly themselves.

You're assuming that the consultant is self-employed through a personal company.

The consultant is almost certainly an employee of a large consultancy firm, not a self-employed contractor. The consultancy firm will be providing the consultant's time/services for a fee which includes overheads/profits, and then paying the consultant a normal wage. No IR35 issues with that at all.

CSJobseeker · 14/10/2021 15:55

@JassyRadlett

Are you talking consultant as in temporarily in-house from a consultancy firm, or consultant

Either way, they really vary. On some things, core to their main competencies, consultancy firms can be amazing and add huge value but I’ve also had occasions where their work has been very basic but they can turn out a beautiful slide deck that is very light on strategic content and you find yourself wondering why you’re paying a £3k day rate when being able to use in-house resource would deliver a better (but less pretty) result.

Freelancers will vary wildly. A lot comes down to the management they are getting of their work.

As a former consultant, I concur.

If you are looking for super-technical work in relation to a technical specialism where it wouldn't make sense to have that kind of specialist in-house, then consultants can add masses of value. General management consultancy however, is money for old rope.

I was the technical specialist kind, and was always amazed at what the more generalist teams could get away with.

GuidingSpirit · 14/10/2021 15:59

I'm a G6 civil servant manager and i would not be happy if one if my G7s were being asked to do this. Such a waste of time! Id be raising it with the consultant directly if she is acting as your day to day manager but also having a chat with the SCS1 to explain the situation, as pps have suggested. You shouldn't have to change your condensed hours working because of it. You should also be making her aware of the core hours policy - she shouldn't be getting arsey with you when it's outside core hours. Does your Dept have a behaviour champion scheme or similar? If so they might have tips on how to respond to micro managers.

GinIronic · 14/10/2021 16:00

You need to start saying no. All the time. Remind her she is not your line manager and you do not work for her. If she is unhappy with your response, tell her to take it up with your actual line manager. Or you could tell her to go swivel either/or.

CSJobseeker · 14/10/2021 16:05

Or you could tell her to go swivel either/or.

Yeah, this is a really good way to get value for money from someone

OP - Obviously don't be arsey with them as it would only reflect badly on you. Challenge what they're asking for and point out that you have capacity to assist with essential content changes, but not to prettify the report due to other demands on your time.

If the issue persists, raise it with an appropriate internal manager, and suggest that the three of you arrange a call to discuss expectations and responsibilities.

CSJobseeker · 14/10/2021 16:08

Also bear in mind that in-house secondments are sometimes used as a toe in the water by consultants who are seeking to leave their firm.

This person may apply for, and get, the G6 position that's being advertised, so don't burn your bridges.

Autumnbaths · 14/10/2021 16:14

@Whatafustercluck

I didn't think you could be managed by a consultant, because they'd need to be line managed by someone up the managerial chain and they can't be due to IR35 regs.

If someone came back to me with such minor amends I'd give them editor access and suggest it would be quicker for them to make changes directly themselves.

The IR35 regs make no difference to this situation - the consultant will be payrolled through their company or will be payrolled through the civil service on a temp contract. And the consultant will always have someone to report to in the managerial chain. Surprised by all the that's not my job stuff on this thread...we expect even our most senior managers to write a document properly and that means to the format specified - they don't have minions running around after them sweeping up the sloppy mess they leave behind, it's poor discipline and a shitty attitude.

Twizbe · 14/10/2021 16:16

I'm an ex management consultant.

This is very standard for consulting. We literally spend hours on those slides and as an analyst you spend even more being taught how to do it. It means now that I cannot look at a badly made up slide and not want to adjust it to be 'on brand' or at least neat.

We also have the expectation that you work until it's perfect and late nights are the norm. It's one of the many reasons I'm now an ex consultant.

That said, you're not a consultant and you've not had that training or have those expectations.

You're their client and I think you can feedback to them that the additional hours are too much for you and remind them that you're not a consultant who's been trained to create these slides.

I word of warning though, she will likely massively internally eye roll at you because she's been through the consulting trenches ... it changes you

GuidingSpirit · 14/10/2021 17:02

@autumnbaths i don't think it's necessarily a "not my job" type of issue, but ineffective working if its repeated multiple requests. I would expect a G7 to pass something to me for review - id give feedback on content and formatting (and often spelling / grammar), which i would expect to be implemented and then that piece of work to be submitted. Multiple review and feedback loops waste the time of the person doing it and the time of the person reviewing it. My reading of OPs original post was a goalposts always moving type of scenario. If OP is making the changes as requested, i would think its poor on the part of the consultant to not be providing one lot of feedback to action and then move on.

Autumnbaths · 14/10/2021 18:02

[quote GuidingSpirit]@autumnbaths i don't think it's necessarily a "not my job" type of issue, but ineffective working if its repeated multiple requests. I would expect a G7 to pass something to me for review - id give feedback on content and formatting (and often spelling / grammar), which i would expect to be implemented and then that piece of work to be submitted. Multiple review and feedback loops waste the time of the person doing it and the time of the person reviewing it. My reading of OPs original post was a goalposts always moving type of scenario. If OP is making the changes as requested, i would think its poor on the part of the consultant to not be providing one lot of feedback to action and then move on.[/quote]
I agree the continual feedback loop is inefficient and my comments were directed at the it's not a G7 job to fix formatting. In my opinion if a G7 is so shit hot and senior they shouldn't need the feedback to fix formatting, they should have sorted that already, it's the basics of planning a document alluded to by @Twizbe and of course if you failed to get your formatting in place at the beginning it's a time consuming bitch to fix it at the end - hence why consultants are programmed to put it in place before they start. Both sides of this relationship can have unrealistic expectations.
We will be working 80 hours a week for the next month because one of our client's team fucked up - I suppose it's part of the job - if they knew what they were doing, we'd be out of a job!

DaisyNGO · 14/10/2021 18:22

@Twizbe

I'm an ex management consultant.

This is very standard for consulting. We literally spend hours on those slides and as an analyst you spend even more being taught how to do it. It means now that I cannot look at a badly made up slide and not want to adjust it to be 'on brand' or at least neat.

We also have the expectation that you work until it's perfect and late nights are the norm. It's one of the many reasons I'm now an ex consultant.

That said, you're not a consultant and you've not had that training or have those expectations.

You're their client and I think you can feedback to them that the additional hours are too much for you and remind them that you're not a consultant who's been trained to create these slides.

I word of warning though, she will likely massively internally eye roll at you because she's been through the consulting trenches ... it changes you

Yes But the only consultants I've worked with have been firmly told that's their job, if they want it to look a certain way, they sort it so that it does.

I did have one try to go on at me about how I'd feel better about my work if I did more of that sort of thing...I told her to talk to my line manager.

She was weird, they swapped her for a consultant who didn't try to change conditions. OP you shouldn't switch your hours because of this. Tell your line manager what's going on.