To think universities should allow “pro-life” groups?

[Mellowfruitfulnessy]

There’s been a few incidents in the news of universities saying that “pro life” groups should be banned because they make women in campus feel “unsafe”.

There was a protest in Exeter today and there’s been similar rumblings elsewhere.

This seems odd to me: it’s fairly standard teaching in Catholicism and the students in the group largely seem to be Christian / non-UK students. Unis are saying these groups are not “inclusive” but if mainstream religious thinking isn’t allowed, isn’t this excluding free speech? Is it really making women feel “unsafe”?

AIBU to say that pro life groups should be allowed on campuses as part of free speech/thinking/religious freedom?

That's interesting re triggers @foxgoosefinch

Without wanting to come over all stiff upper lip, I've observed that people's fear of triggers can generate its own anxieties - and some triggers can only be avoided in highly controlled environments.

For myself I suppose I do find pro-life literature and posters triggering in the non-scientific sense of that word - because of personal experiences, can end up a bit teary around them. But real babies had the same effect for a while, and I couldn't ban them! That wore off - suspect this will too.

I didn’t, in fact, have great support. You are assuming a lot about what trauma involves and what it does. (And it also, while I’m on the subject, it does trauma victims a great disservice to act as if reality and discourse are the same thing; or that a traumatic event or situation is equivalent to the existence of a student society people don’t like.)

You’ll find many women on mumsnet - and, throughout your life end up knowing many - who have experienced a lot of trauma: traumatic childbirth, bereavement, violence, stillbirth, terrible things happening to them or their families. They are not going about demanding that they don’t have to see babies, hear about other people’s births, having anyone who has unpleasant opinions about C-sections being too posh to push and so on.

Are you proposing that we ban any opinion that might retraumatise anyone for any reason?

(That was in response to Roberta by the way!)

I don’t think we really do have freedom of speech there are so much we aren’t allowed to say for fear of upsetting someone. I also don’t think people should have views forced on them.

Of course they should be allowed to have a stall and share their opinion. Any groups surrounding a woman and shouting in her face she’s a murderer should be banned, it’s not having an opinion that’s the banning offence there though.

@LooksGood

That's interesting re triggers *@foxgoosefinch*

Without wanting to come over all stiff upper lip, I've observed that people's fear of triggers can generate its own anxieties - and some triggers can only be avoided in highly controlled environments.

For myself I suppose I do find pro-life literature and posters triggering in the non-scientific sense of that word - because of personal experiences, can end up a bit teary around them. But real babies had the same effect for a while, and I couldn't ban them! That wore off - suspect this will too.

Yes definitely - there’s a big difference between triggers in the sense of trauma and triggers as used in colloquial discourse to mean “something that upsets me or reminds me of bad things”.

Interestingly there’s been some research showing that abortion does not for many women cause trauma at all, and there are women who are keen to stress that the narrative around abortion being horrendously traumatic is also not at all helpful to women.

There’s also a big difference between “trauma” (which is a word that gets bandied around generally, despite having a very specific meaning), and negative life experiences that are just shit, sad and difficult. We all have the latter, but not necessarily trauma about them. In fact it’s surprising, often, how little trauma many people have about them. Most people have many adverse life experiences without developing PTSD, for example. It doesn’t do people with serious trauma any favours either, to act as if something that was horrible and difficult to go through is quite the same as trauma, or being upset and sad.

@Pixxie7

I don’t think we really do have freedom of speech there are so much we aren’t allowed to say for fear of upsetting someone. I also don’t think people should have views forced on them.

@Pixxie7

I also don’t think people should have views forced on them.

Well said. I do agree though that it's very important that those views should be put forward and expressed.

Innocuous thinking that intimidates women to such a level that they feel unable to access family planning clinics! Bullying people in the street. Picking on women who are already struggling with making a decision most people find difficult!

Absolutely not. On no level is that innocuous. If pro-life groups limited themselves to debating the issue in a debating hall or lobbying parliament, then maybe, but they don't.

I am staunchly pro-choice, but anti-abortion. I raised in a religious environment with a pro-choice mother who told me abortion would never be a choice for her, but she would never impose her beliefs on another woman because it is her right to choose. I am the same. I dont believe there is space anywhere for pro-life discourse because it advocates for forcing women to carry a pregnancy they do not want and takes away their choice. The discourse for taking away bodily autonomy for men would never be up for discussion even the castration of rapists is not even a valid conversation so why should forcing women to carry pregnancy be a valid opinion. It is deeply misogynistic. Noone is forcing you to have an abortion if you think it is wrong but not your place to dictate to others what they should do

Firstly I think you are unreasonable to dignify their shite by calling them pro life as they only care about preventing abortion. Secondly some of these groups are allowed on campuses but the ones that have been banned have been due to their behavior. It’s not about avoiding offending some snowflakes as some might have you believe but because of giving out leaflets with misinformation- hilariously one of the common photos they use to highlight the sanctity of birth is of an elephant pregnancy. They lie about the risks of abortion spout shit about medical conditions they know nothing about and generally act as a massive pain in the backside. I remember one group being banned from my uni after they insisted on smearing fake blood all over their hands and calling anyone who went near the free condoms a whore.

Tbh the majority of pro birth supporters I've come across have no respect at all and come out with the most vile drivel I've ever heard. Here in Ireland during the abortion referendum they really came out of the woodwork with their bs. If the ones in UK universities carry on like the ones we had here , then I'd agree with banning them. They were aggressive , rude , vile and spread absolute non sense and false information. Groups of them stood around city centres handing leaflets with pictures of deceased fetuses out, mainly to small children as well. The fetuses In the pictures were far older than the 12 week cut off point in Ireland.
They are basically a hate group here and I'd hate to see them operating in any irish uni

Lots of people on this thread seem to think the universities are banning people from having the anti-abortion opinion and indeed talking about it. Free speech blah blah blah.... They can still talk about it FGS. But that's very different from having a university-affliated group. Universities are private companies, they don't have to sign their name to anything that they don't want to. And banning students from setting up the "University of Exeter Anti-Abortion Group" is absolutely their prerogative IMO. Doesn't mean these students can't organise something on their own time in their own space. If there are people want the "debate" then they will seek them out, not difficult on social media. But I imagine the very vast majority of people don't want to debate this and welcome those people not being given a booth at a Freshers fair to spout their shit freely.

This particular topic is very relevant for a university seeing as the highest rate of abortion is for women in that age group. Universities have decided they want to prioritise the women in those situations. The context is important here.

The only thing they've done wrong is call them womb-havers

As we’ve painted out several times on this thread, universities are not private businesses. They are charities with some public duties, very different to companies. I really do wish people on this thread would check their facts or at least RTFT before adding yet another reply full of factual errors.

*pointed! Bloody autocorrect, I’m going to sleep.

There is absolutely nothing innocuous about pro life groups. Those who believe in forced birth are genuinely one of the greatest threats to women in this country today.

I think universities do have a duty of care to their students, and that involves protecting them from groups who’s entire purpose is to cause them harm. Pro lifers fall firmly into that camp.

*whose not who’s

@JapanJetplane

There is absolutely nothing innocuous about pro life groups. Those who believe in forced birth are genuinely one of the greatest threats to women in this country today.

I think universities do have a duty of care to their students, and that involves protecting them from groups who’s entire purpose is to cause them harm. Pro lifers fall firmly into that camp.

I agree.

Pro lifers are simply trying to remove rights from women. I believe unis should protect students from that.

Pro lifers ram their views down everyone’s throats though so that could be quite poisonous to a young woman at university who might be pregnant, and doesn’t need all that shit guilt tripping them.

I don't agree at all. YABU

No, I have come across venomous anti abortion young people in Ireland (not Catholic btw - but I think Methodist). They spout absolute and utter rubbish which is offensive to any woman who has had an abortion for any reason.

It is also absolutely toxic to any young woman who finds herself pregnant when she doesn’t want to be.

It’s belt and braces misogyny and forced birthers should not be allowed to organise on campus.

@Mellowfruitfulnessy

I think my main worry is that if this fairly innocuous thinking/ideology is “banned” from campuses, it’s part of the same issue that is preventing any controversial topic from being discussed.

Where is it safe to discuss abortion or euthanasia ethics? Only philosophy seminars? Not even there? Shouldn’t students be able to counter different viewpoints with logical argument? Isn’t it granting ideologies too much power if we say they cannot be allowed because they make people unsafe?

I've seen a couple of very nasty pro life demonstrations with horrific images that would be frightening and triggering for some people. Hard to generalise but if they're anything like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were banned.

"I hate the idea of abortion, and it makes me very uncomfortable that people do it" - perfectly valid viewpoint

"people who have had abortions are sinners and need to repent before God" (taken from this specific uni group) - personal and sinister attack on women. Completely unacceptable.

Pro lifers ram their views down everyone’s throats

By that measure we should ban veganism too.

The judgement about what is allowed has to be action not words. Any groups harassing people should be banned but just holding meetings should be permitted for even deeply unpalatable views (unless specifically unlawful e.g. terrorist groups)

Is it universities or Students' unions? The two are not the same.