To think the Met advice to challenge plain clothes officers is just lip service?

[YourFinestPantaloons]

And that at IRL if you did challenge them they'd probably just make things difficult for you. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58757375

As a woman, I have no trust whatsoever in the police - as individuals and as a class. So much has come to light in how many police officers who are violent and sexually violent end up keeping their jobs, how many misogynistic WhatsApp groups are out there amongst officers, how officers don't take women seriously and how there is no (much needed) whistleblowing - Wayne Couzens' nickname was 'the rapist' - yet no one thought to actually do something about someone who was so predatory he gained that nickname.

Even a North Yorkshire commissioner blamed Sarah Everard for her own death because she apparently should have challenged her killer https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-58762029

What will it actually take for actual men to be held to account for their actions? For something to seriously change? And does anyone really believe that challenging plain clothes officers will go in their favour? When will the onus be on men to not attack women?

I'm so angry about all this I could scream.

Well, thank you for asking Pantaloons, basically I mean that it is unhelpful for 'women' to view themselves as weaker to men and therefore more likely to be Victims of male violence. Yes, statistically women are more likely to victims of male violence and indeed they are - myself amongst them, once. Decades ago,

I think vast improvements have been made - but we women have gone backwards a bit in terms of empowerment and a lot of 'men' have not the slightest idea what is going on and who they are.

Whilst we live in a world of such gender uncertainty, the last thing the world needs right now is women declaring themselves as Victims when every gender and identity needs a source of strength to anchor themselves to.

The Police have been a bit of a Rum Bunch for years - but lets just get rid of the badduns and keep the majority who are gooduns.

Word soup anyone?

I see that saying that woman aren't victims because it makes us feel weak is tempting.

But the reality is that we are victims of sexual abuse and harassment.

Not normally on this horrific scale but regularly enough that most women have felt the fear at some time in their life when out and about.

Enough that we teach our daughters ways of keeping safe that our sons never imagine.

It isn't all in our heads, the stats highlight the risk women face as a result of their sex.

@TheHateIsNotGood

Well, thank you for asking Pantaloons, basically I mean that it is unhelpful for 'women' to view themselves as weaker to men and therefore more likely to be Victims of male violence. Yes, statistically women are more likely to victims of male violence and indeed they are - myself amongst them, once. Decades ago,

I think vast improvements have been made - but we women have gone backwards a bit in terms of empowerment and a lot of 'men' have not the slightest idea what is going on and who they are.

Whilst we live in a world of such gender uncertainty, the last thing the world needs right now is women declaring themselves as Victims when every gender and identity needs a source of strength to anchor themselves to.

The Police have been a bit of a Rum Bunch for years - but lets just get rid of the badduns and keep the majority who are gooduns.

@TheHateIsNotGood aside from the fact we are discussing an actual rape and murder victim - this message from the Met is one that blames potential victims for not being challenging enough and I don't think that's a good message.

Women are victims. But telling that that upsets you more than VAWG does

No I am not upset at all and in every circumstance I will defend and support any victims. I wholly recognize that aggression and subjecting 'victims' to violence and other 'controls' can take many forms and that 'victims' are not just women.

I take all of that on board and in no way wish to minimize any victim's experience. Just producing more facets to the current debate

It has been understood for a few decades that women have long been victims of physical violence perpetrated by men, usually in the Home (DV).

Counter-measures - refuges (rip Erin Pizzey). legislation, even police understanding, etc have and are active pressures.

However, parallel to these very slow changes have been the cultural changes that encourage physical strenth in women, no longer is the weak, 'protect me' female a viable proposition; as well as the much wider acceptance that not all men need to follow 'machismo' as the ideal.

Yes, the Police Recruitment and ongoing HR Policy needs a good shake up - to get rid of the wierdos like Couzens; it doesn't mean that women need to set themselves back in terms of perceived weakness in order to effect this,

There's plenty of Female Police that need weeding out as being a wierd psycho isn't just a man thing.

The advice was ridiculous. “Flag down a bus” since when do bus drivers pull over to help a stranger who’s arguing with a police officer? “Check that th police ID was signed by th police commissioner” how am I supposed to recognise their signature (and surely after this the creeps will make better fake badges).

What is needed is rigorous and regular psychological vetting and a way to quickly fire sickos and bullies from the police, plus prison sentences for ‘low level’ sexual predators. His colleagues all knew he was a creep. He was a flasher! He should have been fired and doing community service maybe then he wouldn’t have felt so untouchable that he thought he could get away with this.

Victim blaming and really offensive.

There's plenty of Female Police that need weeding out as being a wierd psycho isn't just a man thing.

It's about 90 to 10 if not more but yeah, OK, male violence is a female issue too

Oh lord must we NAMALT in this thread too?

But yeah, ignoring the derailing there, it’s stupid advice. The advice to “challenge” a police officer is ridiculously short sighted, and it would only lead to more women being charged with resisting arrest.

As well as NAMALT is the SWALT? Some women are like that. If happens as frequently and is just as annoying and even less accurate. Sexual offences are in the main a male crime. Why do people pretend different?

Derbyshire seem to have a better approach than the Met.

Rachel Swann, Chief Constable of Derbyshire Constabulary, said: “The details that have emerged of the circumstances surrounding the rape, kidnap and murder of Ms Everard in London has shocked us all.
“Our thoughts are with her family and friends at this difficult time.
“Policing has been rocked by what Wayne Couzens did, knowing that a police officer could commit such evil and atrocious actions.
“This goes against everything that we stand for. I understand that his actions have undermined trust in policing, but I want to reassure our communities that we will be doing all we can to gain the confidence of the public.
“We are stringent with our vetting checks, and these are carried out throughout people’s policing careers. We have had a small number of investigations into the inappropriate behaviour of officers or staff, and where proven, people have been dismissed. There is no place for that in policing.
“We have a dedicated and committed workforce and have seen an increasing number of female officers wanting to make a difference to keeping people safe, with women accounting for around 40 per cent of our officers.
“There are very few incidents where a lone officer in plain-clothes would be stopping another vehicle without other resources being involved. However, because of this case, we will be reviewing our policies regarding plain-clothes officers in unmarked cars, and we want to try to make sure people do not feel isolated or unsafe while engaging with them. The onus is on us to do that, to create a safe environment, not on those women and girls we are engaging with.
“As a police service, Derbyshire Constabulary is committed to the safety of women and girls, and we are fully committed to delivering the new National Police Chiefs’ Council strategy for Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG), which will prioritise action against sexual and predatory offenders. We are developing a Derbyshire-wide VAWG strategy and plan to deliver that. But as a society we need the narrative to change, we need to stop asking women to change what they do in order to try to keep themselves safe; instead challenging as a community the behaviour of those who make women feel unsafe or where ‘banter’ hides sexism, or harassment is portrayed as a compliment.”

In Scotland the police normally work in pairs ( I assume for corroboration as two or more witnesses are required under Scots Law)
but Police Scotland have issued these guidlines

I cant help but feel other forces should have addressed this in similar fashion

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58776349

I think Public Sector Recruitment needs a bloody good shake up - the Poleese being a good starting point.

Seems whether you work for the DVLA or for the CCRC, you're a Civil Servant, like it or not. Anyone taken the CS Situation Judgement Test recently?

What a bunch of bollocks and thankfully I failed, 16th percentile - the unfortunate thing is that being great at passing this bollocks is a prerequisite of being employed in most public service employments.