To think the ambitions for Net Carbon Zero are utterly impossible for most households?

[backoffice]

I’ve been looking at some of the suggestions that are supposed to be “normalised” for consumers to adopt as we move towards lower carbon: heat pumps, solar power, electric vehicles etc.

To adopt any of these is going to cost a family thousands of pounds! Not to mention the practicalities of e.g. heat pumps in tiny houses with little gardens/small roof. It seems utterly unreasonable to expect consumers to adopt these technologies unless they have a lot of money and large properties, but it’s basically what the government seems to expect people to do. AIBU?

Fair enough @bluebeach - I think that’s fab but there aren’t many subsidies now and realistically not many people will be so altruistic as to spend their money on these things.

I live in a ground floor flat with solid brick walls so I can't see how a heat pump will benefit me as they are less efficient without insulation which we don't have. If anyone wants me to change this boiler before it dies they can pay for it in full, and any other work necessary to fit the replacement, not give me a grant towards it!

I've just ordered a new petrol car and I'll be driving that until it dies. We only have on street parking, first come first served, so I'm not going to change to electric when it'll be a hassle to charge it!

But we are building thousands of houses without thinking of technology? The government should insist new builds include solar panels and charging points for cars

Certainly in Scotland houses need some form of renewable energy, solar, heat pump etc.

Nothing happening with car chargers but it makes sense if a house has a drive and flats with parking they should install them too.

@Lockdownbear Most flats have some form of parking even if not allocated. would it be very expensive to install electric chargers.

It's certainly cheaper to put them in before the car park is completed than to dig it back up later. Even if its the same type they use in public carparks rather than something operating of an individual flats electric supply.

Nah, I'm not playing for 20 years at least...

I can afford to run the cars & motorbikes we have with the money I'm not spending on an Electric Vehicle.

I can afford to pay for my gas boiler with the money I'm not spending on the massively increased electricity costs from running a heat pump.

In 20 years time all the early adopters will have been the guinea pigs & most of the problems will be ironed out.

Then I can buy a nice cheap electric car & retire......

Well whatever solution any urban facing government comes up with, is not ever going to work properly in rural areas. The majority of the population/voters live in towns, so clearly those are going to occupy any government's priority slots. But we also need to be part of the grid, and because I live on a tidal estuary, I am going to add tidal power generation to the list of green options available. There is nowhere in the UK that is further than 80 miles from the coast. There is 7,500 miles of coast, all of it tidal. The tide comes in and out twice a day, every day. In some places it's hugely powerful, but it is always rising and falling apart from the slack periods which are at most one hour at high and low points, so it should be a primary sustainable source of energy. I am not suggesting that it can power all our energy requirements, especially at moments of high demand, but it could and should be better used. In preference to wind power. I know politicians generate lots, just not enough.

@Notcontent

I think dealing with heating in London is an issue. In my street, for example, our terrace houses have tiny gardens so I don’t think there is enough room for heat pumps. Also, even if every house did somehow manage to fit a heat pump in their garden the noise would be pretty horrendous I think - it would make living here extremely unpleasant.

For terraces, it would make more sense to have a communal heating system

@bluebeach

I agree, these changes are beyond those on lower wages but for wealthier middle earners they are probably affordable. We have a joint income of about £50k and with gvnt subsidies have afforded solar panels and an air source heat pump in the last few years. We don’t have a second car, we don’t have expensive Foreign holidays, we tend to buy most things second hand... all things that, as well as being better environmentally have meant we have the money for the panels and the pump. It’s often about life choices.

Sadly most people would rather have their three holidays per year (flying, of course) and a new SUV.

@XingMing

Well whatever solution any urban facing government comes up with, is not ever going to work properly in rural areas. The majority of the population/voters live in towns, so clearly those are going to occupy any government's priority slots. But we also need to be part of the grid, and because I live on a tidal estuary, I am going to add tidal power generation to the list of green options available. There is nowhere in the UK that is further than 80 miles from the coast. There is 7,500 miles of coast, all of it tidal. The tide comes in and out twice a day, every day. In some places it's hugely powerful, but it is always rising and falling apart from the slack periods which are at most one hour at high and low points, so it should be a primary sustainable source of energy. I am not suggesting that it can power all our energy requirements, especially at moments of high demand, but it could and should be better used. In preference to wind power. I know politicians generate lots, just not enough.

They need to concentrate on urban pollution, firstly because urban dwellers are more numerous so changes have a bigger impact, secondly because particulate pollution in towns is a big concern.

However, the gas companies are prioritising the most remote homes for connecting up to hydrogen supplies. Sounds daft given that they're the most expensive to reach but there is method in their madness: remote houses are the biggest polluters because they are usually heated using oil, coal or wood.

Earlier this year a government scheme paid to install an oil fired central heating system in my house. It doesn't seem likely they will want to replace that any time soon?

I will be looking at more environmentally ways of owning a car when I change but I won’t be giving up my car completely, I work in rural community nursing covering 40-50 miles at work only some days then add on school pick up/drop off (on way to work) as school isn’t anywhere near my village. I don’t want to move to more built up areas either so I’ll be keeping a personal car

I’m also concerned that my HA property will replace my gas boiler (fitted in 2017) for electric heating which I really really don’t want

YANBU it's ridiculous.

No one wants to admit that a drastic decline in living standards will be required for the majority of households.

The 1% will be fine though, they can just pay their way out of it.

If you want your mind to be blown, look at the district heating coverage in Denmark. Cost, environmental impact. The infrastructure we have for UK cities (gas/electric heating; individual boilers and per-household responsibility to purchase and maintain; high cost per kW esp electric) is a scam plain and simple. It should never have been built this way. But a lot of companies are making a fortune so.. yay. Capitalism.

I too have big problems with this.

Government arranged a consultancy, which will have cost a fortune, on how to reduce farming emissions. Eat less red meat. This is fine.

But farming only accounts for 10%. Said this consultancy.
I don't even know what the other 90% is according to the this program, but presumably it's ......gas and oil production, huge companies, hs2 and trident. Etc.

So focusing on this 10% where we all use the stems of broccoli to make soup, is fine.

But no one wants to talk about the 90%.

I’ve never understood why concrete homes are not promoted for their energy efficiency.

We live in a 1950s concrete home, it’s incredibly energy efficient- cool in summer and very well insulated in winter. We have gas central heating and barely use it in winter- the temperature doesn’t drop below thermostat for many days of the year (admittedly we do have it set lower than probably most people do). As a consequence our gas bills are very low. In comparison our electricity use is huge-family of 4 with adults wfh.

Another benefit is noise reduction. Semi D and can’t hear our neighbours. Previously we lived in concrete terrace and couldn’t hear neighbours either. I’m always shocked how noisy friends brick houses are -can hear neighbours tv/ baby cry/ sneezing

Surely concrete is an answer?

We need a mix and match approach. Too many people are rejecting various solutions on the grounds that they won't work for absolutely every situation. District heating won't work for large detached houses in the countryside but heat pumps will. Heat pumps won't work for urban terraces, but district heating can. Hydrogen boilers have drawbacks but there are some areas where they may be the most efficient solution.

Ditto transport. Better/cheaper public transport or car sharing or improved cycling infrastructure is never going to be the answer for a Shropshire district nurse, but it would help a lot of people move away from cars (probably along with increasingly draconian congestion charging). For the Shropshire district nurse a privately owned electric car will probably always be the answer.

@Oblomov21

I too have big problems with this.

Government arranged a consultancy, which will have cost a fortune, on how to reduce farming emissions. Eat less red meat. This is fine.

But farming only accounts for 10%. Said this consultancy.
I don't even know what the other 90% is according to the this program, but presumably it's ......gas and oil production, huge companies, hs2 and trident. Etc.

So focusing on this 10% where we all use the stems of broccoli to make soup, is fine.

But no one wants to talk about the 90%.

But that's the thing there is no one thing that counts for 90% of emissions. Just over 25% of emissions are from transport, and by far the most of that is from passenger cars, that's one of the reasons why we're shifting to electric cars, buses, etc.

Just over 20% is energy supply, and that's one of the ones that has been reducing the quickest (mostly by closing coal plants and increasing production of renewable energy).

Then there are emissions from businesses, which have also been coming down. Then there's residential (15%) and that's obviously what this thread is about - so we are talking about it & slowly tackling it.

And then there's agriculture in fifth place.

Although not enough, quite a bit is being done in trying to reduce emissions in the other sectors, and it's now simply time to start focussing on agriculture as well. Especially since emissions from agriculture are largely methane, which is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 (but has a shorter lifespan).

@Laughsaminute One of the issues with concrete is that it has very high embodied emissions (a lot of CO2 is emitted in the process of making concrete).

DH workplace has had electric car charging points for at least six years. At first it was completely free to charge your car, not sure if this has changed.

@Nonamesleftt fair enough- I didn’t know that. However, our surveyors have said our house is so solid it will outlast most of the housing stock in our town. So perhaps it’s a more sustainable long term option. Our house was apparently made in a factory and transported to site in large pieces and then stapled/glued together!

Anyway if we decide to move I would be very wary of brick buildings because they seem to haemorrhage heat and feel very drafty.

@TheUnbearable

DH workplace has had electric car charging points for at least six years. At first it was completely free to charge your car, not sure if this has changed.

I think that's probably changed.

At one point it was illegal to re-sell electricity. So a company connecting a charger to their meter couldn't then charge the people to use it as that came under reselling electricity.

I can't imagine that councils will happily be paying for public charge points and the power to charge everybody's cars.

It's tough but I think the regulations are important - especially regarding new build houses. The idea that houses can be built in this day and age without solar panels or heat pumps is criminal.

We've got an EV and a plug-in hybrid. Electric cars are becoming more and more accessible, though still too expensive and I recognise if you don't have driveway parking the logistics are much harder.
We use Octopus Green so all our energy consumption comes from green sources.
Our main negative is we are on an old oil boiler as there is no gas supply to the village. We desperately want a heat pump and have had various quotations etc but we can't get a quite cheaper than about £12k, with all funding etc counted in- there's no way we can afford that! We don't want to take out a loan because we hope to have children soon and will be paying through the nose for nursery fees etc.
We're hoping to get solar panels but again the up front cost is a real problem. We've got a decent monthly income but it takes us a long time to save for anything substantial.

There is soo much bullshit and green washing…. It makes my blood boil…. Stop buying cheep tat from China and other nations who pollute the planet would have a much greater impact on the environment than a heat pump installation! Incinerated rubbish produces far less green house gasses than shipping our household recycling half way round the planet to be dumped on a land fill….hydrogen is very energy intense to produce, electric cars contain lithium ion batteries which are not recyclable and are extremely poisonous to the plant. We need a cross party body of engineers and scientists / technocrats to put together a 50 year policy and to educate the public. Insulate Britain , Extinction Rebellion and such the like talk utter nonsense and are a constant source of misinformation. This obsession with carbon is bonkers - nuclear energy is low carbon but it’s certainly not renewable. As a stem professional I’m tearing my hair out every time I open the paper!