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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

693 replies

Shirazboobaloo · 23/09/2021 21:09

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

OP posts:
Staryflight445 · 24/09/2021 09:10

People with down syndrome who are like that are few and far between @HarrisMcCoo they’re not likely to show an aggressive, non verbal person with DS on CBeebies are they?
You wouldn’t see anyone hired in a supermarket like that either would you?

Everydayimhuffling · 24/09/2021 09:10

I was 21 weeks when the anomaly scan picked up a heart defect. I was past 24 weeks when we got back the detailed chromosomal analysis that told us that our DC would not have the life-limiting syndrome suggested by their heart defect. If the 24 week limit had been in place for medical issues, I would have been forced to have an abortion that turned out to be unnecessary. People need time to make these decisions with all the information and consideration necessary.

MatildaIThink · 24/09/2021 09:12

@FuckingFlumps

I just have to add again that if you're pro choice you cannot add caveats to that statement.

Anyone who says they are pro choice and follows it up with the word but is deluding themselves that they are pro choice.

This is the problem with both sides of the argument, the ridiculous absolutes that some people want to put in place.

I only know one person who is absolutely against abortion (claims to be Christian, but would rather kick a poor person than help them, fairly typical pro-lifers), everyone else has either never expressed a view or believes that abortion should be allowed, but also within limits.

Most people who are pro-choice are find with abortion up until 24ish weeks, as well as after that where medical issues arise. After 24 weeks hat foetus could be delivered and survive on it's own, so I understand why people hold a somewhat different viewpoint after that stage of development. I doubt you will find many other than some hardcore idealogues who believe in entirely elective abortion for no reason other than personal choice, up until birth.

Just because someone does not agree with you entirely, does not mean that you are not both on the same side, they are not your enemy.

Staryflight445 · 24/09/2021 09:13

It’s not horrible @godmum56 it’s true. It’s probably why many couples choose to not get the screening during pregnancy too, cause you know… happy, bubbly independent outcome.

It’s incredibly sad.

NoYOUbekind · 24/09/2021 09:16

@Sirzy

Apparently it was said in the ruling yesterday that their where no recorded cases in the last 10 years which if true does make the whole thing even more pointless. There are only just over 200 post 24 week abortions each year for medical reasons
This thread being the first time I've read that stat, I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that this campaign was a Trojan Horse.
UsedUpUsername · 24/09/2021 09:19

@FuckingFlumps

I just have to add again that if you're pro choice you cannot add caveats to that statement.

Anyone who says they are pro choice and follows it up with the word but is deluding themselves that they are pro choice.

What if I’m satisfied with current limits but don’t want to change it to broadened it further? Does this make me anti-choice?

Odd POV that

anon12345678901 · 24/09/2021 09:20

@RosyPoesy

What if this was picked up on tests done in first week could euthenasia be used then? Or at any point in life that the severity became aparent? FYI, in the Netherlands euthanasia is legal until a child is 1 year old. So babies born with profound disabilities can be killed.
I believe that to be kinder than subjecting a child to multiple operations and procedures knowing they will still be suffering after. I think it's quite cruel and selfish to bring children into this world with profound disabilities. It's being done for the parents, not what's best for the child.
Lockdownbear · 24/09/2021 09:24

@moofolk good for her if she finds it disgusting that people will abort for DS. But she can not take choice away from other people.
Her DD is maybe on end of the spectrum, she may also still be quite young, she may think differently in the future when she's struggling with old age, fighting for support and struggling to support her DD.

And don't underestimate the fight for support, SW don't always have a sense of urgency.

My DGF felt carering for a disabled son put his brother & SIL in a early graves. The son is now in his 60s, in a home, his sister was convinced he was being abused in one home but couldn't prove it.

It has to be pro-choice, women have a right to decide what is right for them. Some late termination may be due to something happening while the mum was pregnant maybe she's picked up an infection which has harmed the baby.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 24/09/2021 09:25

@Pikaboo
How do you think late term abortion happens? Its not just take a pill and the baby disappears. It's essentially giving birth but your baby is not alive. Pretty much always due to tragic circumstances.

My post was addressing all abortions, not specifically late term.

With regards to late term abortions, I stand by the words ‘forced birth’ because it is incredibly traumatic for a woman to be forced to carry to term a child she doesn’t want for any reason (medical, social, economic, whatever). Refusing to allow a woman to have a termination means that she faces much greater risk to her mental health and physical health. There are also economic consequences for her, and social. Women deserve agency over their own bodies. This shouldn’t be a radical thought.

As early as possibly, as late as necessary.

BreatheAndFocus · 24/09/2021 09:32

This is the problem with both sides of the argument, the ridiculous absolutes that some people want to put in place

Exactly that, MatildaIThink! This isn’t a black or white situation (abortion in general not DS) and people at the extremes digging their heels in and making absolutist statements does nothing to help.

We have to have some guidelines/rules/restrictions. The discussion is where they should be and in what circumstances. The idea that if you’re pro-choice you have to be ok with every circumstance of abortion is simply stupid.

UsedUpUsername · 24/09/2021 09:33

As early as possibly, as late as necessary

Ah here comes the sloganeering.

Jas1985 · 24/09/2021 09:36

I was recently diagnosed as autistic so this case has become more emotive for me in recent months. There are researchers who would like to find a pre natal test for autism, and fear what the implications of that would be. However, I’ve been pro choice since I was able to understand what that meant. I think there’s better ways to tackle ableism in society than rolling back already precarious reproductive rights.

The specifics of this particular proposal cemented my opinion. BPAS have come out against it as it would be the first law to recognise a fetus as having human rights independent of the person carrying it. That sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion

ThanksIGotItInMorrisons · 24/09/2021 09:39

This reply has been deleted

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Generallystruggling · 24/09/2021 09:40

I think the law is correct here. I don’t think anyone should be forced to raise a disabled child. Also think it’s lovely Heidi is independent but many with DS just aren’t. I don’t think the fact it isn’t fatal is the only consideration to make, it’s quality of life for both the parents and child as well as any existing children.

Generallystruggling · 24/09/2021 09:44

Also should add that only 0.1% of abortions in the UK are performed over 24 weeks so a vanishingly small amount. It isn’t a decision anyone would take lightly.

godmum56 · 24/09/2021 09:44

@Staryflight445

It’s not horrible *@godmum56* it’s true. It’s probably why many couples choose to not get the screening during pregnancy too, cause you know… happy, bubbly independent outcome.

It’s incredibly sad.

It is true, but I am aware that folk who may be reading this are people with from birth disabilities and it must be pretty horrible for them to feel that their lives and what was their futures are being discussed in this way. I would hate them to feel dismissed as "the acceptable face of disability"
Ozanj · 24/09/2021 09:45

@Jas1985

I was recently diagnosed as autistic so this case has become more emotive for me in recent months. There are researchers who would like to find a pre natal test for autism, and fear what the implications of that would be. However, I’ve been pro choice since I was able to understand what that meant. I think there’s better ways to tackle ableism in society than rolling back already precarious reproductive rights.

The specifics of this particular proposal cemented my opinion. BPAS have come out against it as it would be the first law to recognise a fetus as having human rights independent of the person carrying it. That sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion

Not the same as Autism. The vast majority cases of Autism are on the low to moderate end of the spectrum. The vast majority of cases of DS are on the severe end of the spectrum. The higher IQ DS people who can hold down jobs, complete degrees and communicate meaningfully to the media are the tiniest minority.

Also if you banned all these late terminations you could end up with Edwards and Patau babies being made to suffer unecessarily. In ancient times these babies were often drowned to be kind to them - in fact the cyclops myths were based on that - far kinder to abort them while still in the womb.

We should all be fighting for earlier diagnosis so women aren’t forced to give birth to dead / non-viable babies.

Covidworries · 24/09/2021 09:48

This has got me thinking about premeture births. We know statistically a child born at 24/25/26 weeks can survive but is more likely to have ongoing health issues or learning disabilities or disabilities due to being premeture.
The survival rate is through extensive medical intervention. Often the procedures done could be classed as causing pain.

Left without medical care the child would likely die at this stage. With care they could survive but need ongoing support throught life, they could have to be peg fed, deaf, blind, behavioural issues etc etc all due to the premature birth.
Are all premature births given life saving care or can a parent decide they want to medical team to do nothing?
A baby born at 23.6 weeks is left i understand ?
We were at risk of premature labour and was told we needed to get to 24 weeks for medical care.

UsedUpUsername · 24/09/2021 09:50

Not the same as Autism. The vast majority cases of Autism are on the low to moderate end of the spectrum

She has a point. I’ve seen the stress autism can put on families. They are working on diagnostic tests and I’m sure I’m not alone in saying that I’d absolutely abort if I received such a diagnosis.

We should all be fighting for earlier diagnosis

Definitely agree with you there

Charliechoosecarefully · 24/09/2021 09:52

@ThanksIGotItInMorrisons

Excuse my ignorance, but just how the fuck would one terminate an almost/full term pregnancy? Surely that’s fucking murder not the morning after pill/8 weeks abortion?
They usually give the fetus an injection that stops the heart so it dies painlessly in the womb and then the women will need to birth it - about 0.1% of abortions are performed 24+ and it's usually because of medical issues, the women gives birth to a dead baby so I doubt any woman is taking the choice lightly, it must be horrendous.
Tigger85 · 24/09/2021 10:01

I had a late termination for medical reasons last year. My 12 week scan was normal, nothing was found until the 20 week scan, then they found more and more problems every single week, I was also becoming sick due to too much amniotic fluid. My son had two very rare conditions heterotaxy syndrome (1 in 40 000 occurance) and vacter association ( estimated to be somewhere in the 1 in 10 000-1 in 40 000 occurance) both of these conditions have highly variable outcomes, most people with right sided heterotaxy die within 2 years, most people with left sided (what my son had) die by the age of 5, there are a few that survive childhood, virtually none who make it to adulthood. The majority of people who have vacter are able to live good quality if slightly limited lives once they have had their surgeries, the first 3-4 years are the most dangerous and incredibly tough. Some people are much more seriously affected by vacter and will not survive or will have very short lives filled with pain, others will die due to complications from their multiple surgeries. My son was very severely affected with major severe defects in all his organs except his brain and lungs. His spine was also deformed in the lumbar region. We had genetic screening done and did not have a firm diagnosis or a prognosis until 25+3, I had the first part of the tfmr at 25+6 and he was born at 26+3. You cannot have a termination after 24 weeks unless the fetus has a condition that is either incompatible with life or would cause major physical or mental disability, or the mother's life or physical and mental well being is at risk. Two doctors must agree that a termination is justified, there are no named conditions.

My living son was also found to have congenital abnormalities at 20 weeks in his case it was ventriculomegaly and an absent csp both of which are brain abnormalities with an occurance of 1 in 100 000. I had to make a choice for him too, one of his conditions got better during the pregnancy, in a second MRI at 27 weeks the ventriculomegaly had resolved and was at the very upper limits of normal. At this point we were told that termination would no longer be an option for us, we had already decided to continue anyway and it was a huge relief to learn that termination was no longer an option, it meant our son had much better odds of a good outcome. Both his conditions also had a large variation of outcomes. He could have completely normal development, mild developmental delays and learning difficulties or severe disabilities, unable to ever sit, eat or breath on his own, unable to ever have cognition beyond that of a newborn baby. It was impossible to say for sure where he would fall in that spectrum until sometime after he was born, we would not know the full extent until he became school age but the doctors were very optimistic. He is now 4 with normal development.

I am in several support groups for tfmr, the latest I have heard of anyone having a tfmr was 34 weeks, the lady was American and one of the reasons she had it so late was difficulty financing it as well as finding a clinic and a doctor who would allow it. She did not know her baby was severely sick with multiple severe brain abnormalities caused by strokes in the womb until almost 30 weeks. Almost everyone I know who has had a tfmr for t21 has done so between 12 and 18 weeks. I know one person who has had a tfmr for t21 at 23 weeks after previously deciding to continue with the pregnancy despite knowing the baby had down syndrome. The reason she then changed her mind us because she then found out her baby had several major heart defects as well as ds. It is common for ds and heart defects to go hand in hand, around 50% of people with ds have some form of heart defect, in the general population only 1% of people have a congenital heart defect.

I have followed Heidi's campaign although it has made me very upset, I can understand her viewpoint but she doesn't get to decide for other people. She was campaigning for all terminations for medical reasons to be banned after 24 weeks, not just ds. She is also against screening for ds fullstop and has been involved in the anti NIPT campaign. I am relieved by the outcome. I did not want my son to die, o never wanted a termination, it was a heartbreaking decision, the worst thing I have ever gone through in my life. Ultimately I made the choice to tfmr my wanted and loved son so that he would never suffer.

Making a specific ruling to ban terminations for one named condition is a slippery slope to banning tfmr for other conditions and potentially all terminations for medical reasons. If that happens you are condeming many babies to short painful lives and causing huge amounts of trauma to parents, especially mothers who will be forced to undergo labour only to then watch their child suffer and die.

Samcro · 24/09/2021 10:03

@Ginger1982

Some women could cope with the challenges a child with DS may bring and some couldn't. It has to be their choice.
so what do they do if the baby becomes disabled a birth, or later ?
goinggently · 24/09/2021 10:03

@Suzy39 ThanksI'm so sorry you had to face that x

Sirzy · 24/09/2021 10:05

tigger I can’t even begin to imagine how hard that must have been for you and your family. Thank you for being strong enough to share your story Flowers

goinggently · 24/09/2021 10:07

@Treaclepie19 Thanks