To ask whether gaining entrance at 16 to a Grammar school is proportionately less difficult than passing the 11+

[peewitsandy]

I was chatting on the phone with my best friend from University who use to tell me how high the standards where at her school in the 80s and 90s (Skipton Girls High) . She was therefore shocked to be informed that entry to their sixth form only requires 5 grade 4s for a Grammar schools sixth form. These are not really the grades expected for someone who passes the 11+ .

I had a inquisitive look at other Grammar schools Sixth Form requirements, Lincolnshire Grammar schools in general for 16+ entry are not onerous.

I know requirements for different schools are a mixed bag, my three children's Grammar schools in Essex require at least 3 7s or (A) grades in old money.
However, in general is passing the 11+ more onerous than achieving so 4 or 5 6s GCSE (B) grades at 16.

Yes, I'd expect it to be much less difficult. I think it is still relatively difficult for the most popular grammars.

Are they allowed to interview/set entrance exams these days for sixth form?

I went to a different Grammar for sixth form. On paper, I needed 6Bs. In reality, I had passed the entrance exam and interview, and needed an A in each subject to be accepted onto the course (A* in Maths).

It’s different. Probably fairer to be honest!

It really depends in the school and the area. For some grammars, you simply need to be abound average to get in at 11 plus or 16 plus. In the other hand, for grammars such as Tiffin in Kingston, there are 15 applicants for every place at 11 plus ( and no doubt similar at 16 plus). They are all so different. Obviously a school in Lincolnshire m is going to be a lot less pressurised than one in SW London, for instance. It’s like chalk and cheese.

Definitely easier I'd say. Ours requires 32 points over your six best GCSEs (in 5 in Eng/maths) but particular subjects require a 6 or 7 in the subject or related eg 6 in maths for psychology.

I’m in Essex, passing 11 plus is not enough, you need to be in the top few %. It’s only a one day snapshot. I would say much easier to get in at 16.

On paper, ... In reality
This.
Also, they are looking for a different thing. At Year 7, they want an all-rounder. At sixth form, they need to balance an intake of x scientists against y humanities and z artists.
Also, round here, the cohort tends to be bigger with new Y12 intakes so the bar lowers a bit.

They might have different requirements for new joiners than for existing pupils or, if you have grades at the lower end of the scale, actively steer you towards easier subjects or courses.
My nearest super-selective runs their own subject tests at 15+ to decide who gets the handful of 6th form places which come up.
To be honest I wouldn't have thought 5x grade 4 would be enough to suggest that you're a suitable A-level candidate anyway.

Possibly. When I did the 11+ many moons ago I passed, but was told I would either be in the bottom set for most subjects, or I can go to a Comprehensive and I will be in the top set. My parents decided to send me to a Comprehensive. I eventually did my A levels at a Grammar and it wasn't a particular issue being accepted

My dd is at a sixth form grammar (after being at the grammar since Year7).

They need at least a GCSE grade 7 in a subject to study it at A level. 4 sounds awfully low to me.

I think there is a massive gulf between the grades they put on their web site for sixth form entry and the grades they accept from new entrants.

They usually put the minimum grades for students already in the school to progress to sixth form. Students who do not attain those grades are asked to leave.

DC schoolused to say a minimum of 7 grade B s. In practice all new entrants had a string of A and A*s.

I had a inquisitive look at other Grammar schools Sixth Form requirements, Lincolnshire Grammar schools in general for 16+ entry are not onerous

The Grantham grammars want bums on seats as they are in competition with some excellent sixth form colleges.

Neither the boys or the girls grammars are super-selective at 11 plus so it's not particularly onerous to get in - parents just have to stump up for tutoring!

I think there is a massive gulf between the grades they put on their web site for sixth form entry and the grades they accept from new entrants

Is that legal?

This is from the Sixth Form Prospectus.

Course Requirements
Choosing to study at Skipton Girls’ High School is a positive
commitment to Post 16 Education. You are starting a programme of full time education, which needs your full energy and
support.
Sixth Form applicants need to consider their options wisely
to ensure they are choosing a set of subjects that will engage
them and that will play to their strengths.
The curriculum at Skipton Girls’ High School consists of 12,
seventy-five minute lessons. All students study three advanced
level qualifications and an enrichment option in Year 12. Each
A Level course is taught in 4 seventy-five minute periods per
week. For each subject that you study we expect additional
hours of individual study time - and thus, expect all our Post
16 students to remain in school for all their non-contact study
time.
The minimum qualifications for entry into the
Sixth Form at the school are:
• At least 5 GCSE’s 9 - 4 including Maths and English
The school will also take into consideration an applicant's
overall profile before agreeing to them studying any particular
set of subjects.
Dress Code
We expect our students to be smartly presented at all times,
including whilst travelling to and from school

It's going to depend a lot on the area and the set-up, and there's bound to be a difference between very rural areas and urban areas with multiple sixth-form providers. Where else are 16 year olds in Skipton going to go for A-levels? In fact, the Skipton Girls High website specifically says that it is selective at year 7 and comprehensive for the sixth form - they are expecting to take those who didn't make it through the 11+ but are doing well enough to give A-levels a shot.

@TellittomyHearth

I think they can advertise minimum grades to get into Sixth Form - and they probably have to let current students stay on if they get those grades.

But if they are a popular school with more sixth form applicants than places they are entitled to select the strongest students from among those applicants.

Yes, it's much easier where we are.

There are more places in the sixth forms than at 11+ because historically only the grammar schools had sixth forms here, although the local FE college offers A-levels, as well as vocational courses.

Now the non-selective schools have opened sixth forms, making it even easier to get in as there is less competition for places.

However, you need a 7 for most of the A-level options (plus a minimum of 5 in Maths and English for everyone) so there is still selection but you don't need to be an all-rounder like you do for the 11+, just good at the subjects you want to study.

Yes easier here too.
I am in a super selective area.
It's easier in some cases as they increase the intake size and as PPs have said there is more competition at other 6th form locations .

@Dowowowown

Yes, I'd expect it to be much less difficult. I think it is still relatively difficult for the most popular grammars.

That.

Just looking what it is at my old grammar school:
Entry to 6th form requires:
4 GSCE passes at grade 7 or above plus
2 GSCE passes at grade 6 or above
at least grade 7 in the subjects in the subjects to be studied at Alevel and a 6 in English language and maths.

I honestly can't remember what it was in my day but we had very few joined from other schools at 6th form and most, if not all, of them came from independent schools rather than the "failed 11+" high schools.

The school will also take into consideration an applicant's
overall profile before agreeing to them studying any particular
set of subjects.

That's probably key here though.
They say minimum 5x grade 4, but I expect in real terms anyone with those grades will be unlikely to get in. There's a difference between on paper and reality often in these situation. If they've only got grade 4s then I suspect there aren't any A-levels they are able to take because they won't meet the grade requirements for each subject.

It reminds me a bit of the mum who informed me she was making a complaint about the Health Visitor. At the 2 year check HV asked if they were saying 50 words. She replied proudly "I think he's a genius; he says 120!" HV did not make all the impressed noises she was confidently expecting, hence the complaint.
I (and a couple of other mothers) tried to help her understand by explaining that it wasn't that 50 words was normal and more was amazing, but 50 words was the minimum before intervention was suggested. She didn't get it.

In the same way it isn't that 5x grade 4 is what they expect for entry, it's simply the minimum level before they will look at an individual case to decide if they can accept it.

An interesting thing is happening at the grammars in my area (London). Most superselectives are single sex, and lots of people now prefer mixed sixth form so some of their best pupils are moving for a co-ed environment. That's where the places are and in some subjects it's definitely easier to get in at sixth form level.