To ask what are the rules re rape victims handing over phones to police and if the invasion of doing that is worth going through pursuing a case if mental health already fragile?

[C0t0n3ast3r]

Just that. I’m asking for my child who has spoken to police but been warned phone will be taken for evidence. It’s having a big impact on mental health that is already fragile. I know it’s not my decision but not sure what to do re encouraging either way. Does going through with a prosecution help with recovery in the long run? Does not going though with it make mental health worse?Can police drop a case if there is a refusal to hand over phone? Has anybody had to do this and how did it impact mental health?

Sorry to hear about your daughter.

The perpetrator needs bringing to justice. It's just a phone!

Get another. I buy second hand phones when I break or lose one from Ebay for less than 100. You cant not prosecute for fear of losing a phone.

Surely they will let you copy contacts etc to your PC first, then download onto new phone?

It’s not as easy as that.My child already had fragile mental health and is extremely anxious. It’s not as easy as just handing it over. Also aside from the invasion of privacy I’m also concerned re the messages it sends out. Want to be sure it will be worth the trauma. At the end of the day it won’t be my decision but not sure how to support or advise.

No police have said phone will need to be handed in. Do you have to or can they proceed without? I wasn’t there with conversations as 17.

My relative handed over her phone willingly. Yes it is an invasion of privacy, but it needs to be done. Sadly this was done far, far too late and the perpetrator's phone was long gone.

Every thing was downloaded on to a new phone and she got the old one back eventually.

I think it's worth it, but that's just my personal opinion.

This was meant to be stopped as victims do not need investigating as if they were the accused.

Is there something on there that could help her - a text that the perpetrator has sent that could support her case? If not then do not hand it over. Support her in asking why this is necessary if there is no need for it.

The police took data without consent and it really affected me. I felt powerless at the time as a victim and unable to stand up to them. I have no idea what data they took. Your daughter will also feel powerless. You have that power to stand up to the police and say no.

I can only comment on England/Wales - Scotland might be different.

Unfortunately it's not the police insisting on this - it's the CPS. They are hugely reluctant to charge a suspect without a phone download from both suspect and victim especially if they are known to each other. It's to do with R v Allen and the collapse of the case.

Realistically, unless the suspect is on remand, it won't be a quick investigation and is unlikely to make it to trial in less then 2 years - probably longer due to the backlog at court. Rape investigations can be long and complex and the charging threshold from CPS is very high and can be difficult to get across. Your daughter will be supported by a specially trained officer throughout but it may still take it's toll. They are likely to need her phone for several months.

Hi OP. You have said the word invasion so I assume you're concerned about the privacy aspect more than her not having a phone.

The police have to carry out all reasonable lines of enquiry when an allegation has been made. In some sexual offences (say where the parties are not known to each other before the incident) then the evidence on a phone is unlikely ever to be reasonable. However in cases where the parties are known and where the suspect may be saying the victim consented then the police need to look at material on the phone because there is a duty to disclose to the defence any material that might help the defence or damage the prosecution case.

Without proper management of disclosure a case will fail.

A prosecutor won't hand over general personal information on the phone (for example intimate conversations with others etc) and disclosure will only be where the content meets a certain test for this particular case.

I know how frightening it is for a victim and how they can feel that they are being judged after such a traumatic event. I am so sorry that you and your DD are having to go through such an ordeal and for what happened to her. The police and cps want to successfully prosecute more rape cases but in order to do that they need to ensure that they have carried out the investigation properly and then handled disclosure correctly.

You have asked about the consequences for not handing it over. In some cases that happens and the impact depends on the particular issues arising. If the suspect were to say something in his defence that brings material on the phone directly into issue then it makes it difficult for the prosecution. Not having it can in some situations make prosecution difficult.

The police use specialist investigators and the cps have a bespoke unit to handle rape and sexual offences.

Your daughter should be provided with support via an Independent Sexual Violence Advisor who can help explain the process.

As a rape victim who reported it to the police my recommendation would be to never report rape to the police. I was actually mentally ok after being raped. It was the way I was treated by the police that traumatised me. My rapist left me with physical injuries that required hospital treatment, left dna inside my body and apologised in writing for raping me. It didn’t even get to court due to insufficient evidence. He was interviewed once for less than half an hour. I had my phone taken for 3 months, was interviewed 6 separate times and constantly asked if what my sexual tastes were, did I enjoy bondage, have I ever asked a partner to hit me during sex, asked why I met with a man that I’d previously considered a friend and gone to his house if I wasn’t planning to have sex with him. It was just awful.

I consider myself fairly robust, mentally, but I do not know how anyone has the strength to actually go through a rape trial as a victim.

In my personal experience I was fragile mentally and the reporting alone had a massively negative impact. This was pre phone era and I think the added stress of my privacy being picked through would be a lot.
On one hand yes it's vital to punish rapists but on the other rape and sexual assault is not like other crimes, its in a whole other realm of violation and should be treated with the utmost care ad compassion but seldom is.

Here’s the guidance from the CPS about handing over phones. Please ask your dd to read it carefully. I hope she is getting support via the police for this crime - sending her big hugs.

www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/handing-over-mobile-phone-data-rape-prosecutions

@HeAteItWithASpoon

As a rape victim who reported it to the police my recommendation would be to never report rape to the police. I was actually mentally ok after being raped. It was the way I was treated by the police that traumatised me. My rapist left me with physical injuries that required hospital treatment, left dna inside my body and apologised in writing for raping me. It didn’t even get to court due to insufficient evidence. He was interviewed once for less than half an hour. I had my phone taken for 3 months, was interviewed 6 separate times and constantly asked if what my sexual tastes were, did I enjoy bondage, have I ever asked a partner to hit me during sex, asked why I met with a man that I’d previously considered a friend and gone to his house if I wasn’t planning to have sex with him. It was just awful.

I consider myself fairly robust, mentally, but I do not know how anyone has the strength to actually go through a rape trial as a victim.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. My rapist also admitted it and mine didn't get to court either. The police said I should accept it now with the introduction of 50 shades and that he stopped eventually so there is no issues. They even answered their own questions they put to me when I was too distressed to answer. I was then threatened never to say that he raped me because I would get arrested for that as it wasn't proven in court. Never again would I report.

That’s really helpful, thank you. Does anybody know if proceeding can helpful in the long run. The experience below is my concern ie my child will end up feeling even more crap. As selfish as it sounds preservation of mental health means more to me than getting a conviction.

@C0t0n3ast3r

Just that. I’m asking for my child who has spoken to police but been warned phone will be taken for evidence. It’s having a big impact on mental health that is already fragile. I know it’s not my decision but not sure what to do re encouraging either way. Does going through with a prosecution help with recovery in the long run? Does not going though with it make mental health worse?Can police drop a case if there is a refusal to hand over phone? Has anybody had to do this and how did it impact mental health?

The police will continue to investigate, but with a refusal to hand the phone over the CPS will be more likely to not prosecute. Rape is almost always a "he said, she said" situation unless violence was involved which makes it very difficult to prosecute anyway, the police and CPS will want to know the background and look for all possible evidence either way. There have been cases where rapists have apologised for the rape the next day via messaging, that obviously gives compelling evidence of guilt. There have also been cases where a "victim" has messaged saying "thank you for a lovely night etc. only to change their mind in the morning and claim rape when the sex was entirely consensual.

I am not in any way saying your child's case is not entirely valid, but the police and CPS need to be sure of that. The measure for guilt is "beyond a reasonable doubt", they will not want to be blindsided by some evidence presented by the defence.

I don't know on mental health as it is always different for everyone, with different people having different reactions to every part of then process, let alone the rape itself. One of my close friends was raped when we were at uni, it was Nokias back in those days and the police asked to see text messages, which she showed them and it did not bother her, but I know some people react differently. He was found guilty and was jailed, that made her feel better, although she was one of the lucky people who did not get traumatised by the whole experience. She was and still is a very pragmatic person, went to see a therapist as a precaution, was open in talking to her friends about it etc. she made the decision not to feel shamed by it as she had done nothing wrong. She took us friends down the pub to celebrate the rapist going to prison.

As she's already fragile mentally please keep in mind I know someone who wasn't allowed to access support until after the trail of her rapist in case it was used against her or "changed her memory of the event". They used it against her anyway and he got off.

He'd done it to other women but they all refused to go to court.

MatildaIThink
I had a confession and the police didn't even put it to CPS because of victim blaming attitudes like that. Women don't change their mind. These are rape myths. Peddled by men to cast doubt on the accusers and clearly it works on some women too.

@C0t0n3ast3r

That’s really helpful, thank you. Does anybody know if proceeding can helpful in the long run. The experience below is my concern ie my child will end up feeling even more crap. As selfish as it sounds preservation of mental health means more to me than getting a conviction.

It doesn't sound selfish at all, and having read the accounts of survivors on this thread I don't think I would encourage my children to report a rape either. All the very best to you x

@HeAteItWithASpoon and @RocketPanda

Your stories are absolutely shocking and not at all what you would expect from an otherwise civilised country like ours.

When drivers for speeding, bad parking etc are gone after more harshly than rape perpetrators you just despair don’t you. Utterly appalling.

Thank you for sharing your stories, even if they make the blood boil!

And society wonders why women can be nervous around men…and we get called hysterical for it. I have no words!

@Justreadingtheforum3

Sorry to hear about your daughter.

The perpetrator needs bringing to justice. It's just a phone!

Get another. I buy second hand phones when I break or lose one from Ebay for less than 100. You cant not prosecute for fear of losing a phone.

It's not about the phone. If the OP is in the UK, there have been multiple stories in recent years about how wrong this demand for victim's phones is, as they trawl through it looking for anything the defence may use to suggest the victim was 'asking for it', then the CPS refuses to prosecute the case. (It's just another way of saying women are asking for it if they dress a certain way.)

OP, I am so sorry to hear about your daughter, and for what you must be going through to. As much as I am in favour of reporting crimes, I would be thinking twice about it in your daughter's case. Are the two of you able to talk about what she feels about reporting it and whether she would cope with police questioning? If she's not sure, would a therapist be able to help her figure out whether reporting it is right for her at the moment?

@HeAteItWithASpoon and @RocketPanda

I have no words. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. As a mother of a daughter, I fear for her every day.

Op, I’m sorry I don’t have any advice just wanted to offer some . I’m sorry for what your dd is going through and I hope he get what he deserves.

The police will continue to investigate, but with a refusal to hand the phone over the CPS will be more likely to not prosecute. Rape is almost always a "he said, she said" situation unless violence was involved which makes it very difficult to prosecute anyway

Sorry but this is bullshit. The CPS don’t prosecute when there has been violence, or he’s confessed, or it’s been recorded etc, it happens all the time. The idea that they don’t prosecute because it’s “he said, she said” is almost a rape myth itself at this point.

I agree with HeAteItWithASpoon, I would never report again, it only adds to the trauma and prosecutions are as rare as unicorns, never mind getting a guilty verdict in court.

I’m so sorry this happened to your daughter OP, some therapy might help if she’s not already having any? I’d also make her aware of how unlikely it is that he will end up in prison, she needs to be prepared for what she will go through if she wants to continue.

@Awalkintime

MatildaIThink I had a confession and the police didn't even put it to CPS because of victim blaming attitudes like that. Women don't change their mind. These are rape myths. Peddled by men to cast doubt on the accusers and clearly it works on some women too.

One of my husband's friends was falsely accused of rape by a woman, I know it was false because the friend was on a golfing holiday in Portugal with seven other people including my husband on the weekend when the woman claimed it occurred. My husband's friend is a lovely man but was broken by this for months, he was arrested at his place of work because the police had been unable to locate him elsewhere (he had not been at home as he was in Portugal). It took nearly right months for it to be dropped despite records showing he was not even in the country when it happened.

Some women are horrible, just as rapists are horrible people, the cases might be a minority but for justice to be done we have to uphold the law and validity of convictions, we cannot convict based purely an accusation.

For fuck sake @MatildaIThink, read Awalkintimes post properly, he had confessed. This really isn’t the right place for your stories of evil lying women.

At no point did I say that we should convict on an accusation. However it takes a lot to get an arrest for rape and men will always deny it of course.

I said women changing their mind is a myth. Women text their rapists often following rape because of the 5 fs - fight, flight, friend, foe and flop. Lots do not realise they were raped - like me. The police told me it was rape. For a year I did not know. Many are groomed and do not respond in the text book way. Many carry on being friends as they as keeping friends keeps them safe. So texting thank you for a nice night is not confessing they consented at all. The complexities of how people react to rape is poorly understood clearly.