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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I HATE paying Council Tax. It's the bill I hate the most.

391 replies

flashbac · 14/09/2021 09:25

Council Tax is regressive and unfair.

It takes more money from lower income individuals.

It has no link to the actual value of a property.

In addition to linking council tax to value, the bands also need to increase in range in order to reflect the vast difference in property values.

How can it be right that a million pound property in Westminster is the same or (often lower) CT rate than a 2 up, 2 down house in Yorkshire?

OP posts:
roarfeckingroarr · 14/09/2021 11:37

It's about what services cost in your area. Having a more expensive house doesn't mean you use more services; so why would you pay more?

BungleandGeorge · 14/09/2021 11:39

@purplesequins

would you prefer to pay the fees separately?

not uk and we pay yearly bills for:

  • street maintenance and cleaning
  • refuse & recycling collection
  • tree maintenance
  • parking wardens
etc
We just don’t get most of those services! If you want a rubbish collection more frequently than every 2 or 3 weeks or any garden waste collected you pay on top.

If you pay separately perhaps it’s more easily to hold them accountable? Rather than the money being creamed off for hospitality and fancy offices

sleepygnome · 14/09/2021 11:39

Not just that, but if you live in a £5 million property owned outright but have a low income or no income you don't have to pay council tax or pay very little yet someone renting and being payed £25k per year has to pay.

BoredZelda · 14/09/2021 11:42

That’s the top banding, so most people don’t pay that. I live in a 4 bed semi on the outskirts of Glasgow and pay just over £2k pa AND that includes water charges, which the English have to pay on top of council tax.

We’re top band elsewhere in the central belt and pay just shy of 4K. Not complaining, we’ve to pay for these services, but just because you aren’t paying 4K, doesn’t mean we aren’t elsewhere in Scotland.

BoredZelda · 14/09/2021 11:44

We just don’t get most of those services!

Of course you get those services, you just think they should be better.

SoupDragon · 14/09/2021 11:44

It's a local tax for local people though isn't it? So, the amount you pay is, on the whole, down to your local council, not the government. Comparing areas isn't really very useful as the bandings are simply used to split the total cost between properties.

The question is why can some councils provide services so much more cheaply than others?

amusedbush · 14/09/2021 11:46

I'm in Glasgow and our council tax is £1640 a year, though I'm a full-time student so we get a 25% reduction. I've never complained about paying it but our bin collection has gone from every two weeks to every three and there are pot holes EVERYWHERE, some so deep you can practically see China.

A neighbour complained to the council that the area of bushes at the side of the car park was overgrown and taking up parking spaces and, rather than trim it back, the council came with chainsaws and hacked every single bush down to a stump. Every house in the square now looks out onto a large patch of mulch, fag ends and badly cut stalks sticking out of the mud.

At this moment, my money doesn't feel well spent.

LindyLou2020 · 14/09/2021 11:47

@thetemptationofchocolate

Interesting question Lindylou. I'm wondering if an increase in the rate of Income Tax would cover it, and scrap local taxes altogether. That would make savings at Council level as they wouldn't have to have a department each for collecting the local taxes. But this would need to be done along with stringent measures to prevent tax evasion and that's something this Government would never do. If every person, and every company trading, paid their taxes, we'd have more than enough, I suspect, to pay for social care.
That's also an interesting idea, thetemptationofchocolate. Regrettably I wouldn't trust this current government to, as you point out, devise stringent measures to prevent tax evasion. And nor would I trust them to ringfence the amount of the increase in Income Tax to be used as intended.
BungleandGeorge · 14/09/2021 11:47

@BoredZelda

We just don’t get most of those services!

Of course you get those services, you just think they should be better.

No actually we don’t get some of them. Peoples houses have flooded because the drains haven’t been cleaned for years. I’m not sure how long you have to go without the service to say it doesn’t exist, rather than it’s insufficient? If a road needs resurfacing has been reported and still isn’t fixed a year later is that service insufficient or non existent?
Zeal · 14/09/2021 11:48

How can it be right that a million pound property in Westminster is the same or (often lower) CT rate than a 2 up, 2 down house in Yorkshire?

It is not right, but it was how the system was designed in the early 1990's. Tories famously held out that Westminster was efficiently run compared to parts of the North. Clearly this was divisional. Westminster is not difficult to run. It is generic lines of neat garden squares, streets and lighting with a high dwelling density. Should be an easy job and a low easy budget with little variances.

Belladonna12 · 14/09/2021 11:49

@Poolbridge

In some countries council tax is the responsibility of owners / landlords and not tenants. I think it is really unfair that tenants are required to pick up this financial burden.
You do realise that if the landlord pays they pass on the cost via rent don't you?
Mintjulia · 14/09/2021 11:50

I think about it in purely practical terms.

They take away 26 wheelie bins full of smelly rubbish. They grit our road, clear our drains, provide the tip, maintain our village hall and all our stiles and footpaths. They support the local bus services, help provide the primary school. They support our local theatre, markets and waterways, contribute to the police and the planning team.

We personally don't use any care services (oap/social care etc) but quite happy to contribute.

If I think of it that way, it doesn't bother me. Generally they do a good job.

SunIsBehindGreySky · 14/09/2021 11:54

I left London and couldn't believe how much money I saved not propping up sexist Khan and his job creation scheme.

nordica · 14/09/2021 11:56

@Poolbridge

In some countries council tax is the responsibility of owners / landlords and not tenants. I think it is really unfair that tenants are required to pick up this financial burden.
Not at all, as it's the tenants that benefit from the council services.

I do think it's unfair in general that it's linked to where you live rather than your income. In some other countries council services would be funded centrally through the government and taxation, so it's linked to income.

goldfinchfan · 14/09/2021 11:57

I think it mostly goes on Council Office workers Pensions.
And I do not think this is right.
They retire too early and live too long.

roarfeckingroarr · 14/09/2021 11:58

I wonder if all those always saying "income tax should cover it" / tax the rich (see also the NHS and social care NI increase) have a limit at which they think the rich should not shoulder all the burden, or if they realise that the top 1% pay well over 30% of all taxes, or have ever studied a Laffer curve.

nordica · 14/09/2021 11:58

The only good thing about council tax is the discount for single people, which is currently 25%. That makes a difference to me, as in general living alone is really expensive - I'm paying everything else from a single income.

SunIsBehindGreySky · 14/09/2021 11:59

I think it mostly goes on Council Office workers Pensions.
And I do not think this is right.

Like charities, you would think they would all be full of volunteers making the most of the money for the actual people needing help, instead they are full of scamming people justifying a job creation scheme enjoying their salary and pensions etc.

Zeal · 14/09/2021 11:59

You do realise that if the landlord pays they pass on the cost via rent don't you?

Then the tenant passes it on in the form of increasing cost of housing benefits.

Which the government passes on to landlords in the form of increased taxation.

There have been at least 15 subtle tax increases on property investors in the last 10 years. There will be inevitably be more if we have generations who cannot get on the housing ladder. Absolutely inevitable.

Droite · 14/09/2021 11:59

@SunIsBehindGreySky

I left London and couldn't believe how much money I saved not propping up sexist Khan and his job creation scheme.
You could have saved money by moving to Westminster or Wandsworth. It has very little to do with costs within the Mayor's areas of responsibility.
SunIsBehindGreySky · 14/09/2021 12:02

You have a detailed council tax bill, I was paying a fortune for the London assembly and a sexist Mayor who taxes women at the same rate as he will tax men and yet he treats women as second class citizens.

vickibee · 14/09/2021 12:02

I am recently widowed and have applied for the 1/4 reduction. It is still very expensive as i am on a low income so it takes up 12 percent of my salary. How is that fair, all taxes should be in proportion to someone's ability to pay. It is regressive and urgently needs reform.

Zeal · 14/09/2021 12:03

@roarfeckingroarr

I wonder if all those always saying "income tax should cover it" / tax the rich (see also the NHS and social care NI increase) have a limit at which they think the rich should not shoulder all the burden, or if they realise that the top 1% pay well over 30% of all taxes, or have ever studied a Laffer curve.
^Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100...

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7..
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat
friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.^

And the weather abroad is often better!

TinnedPotatoesRock · 14/09/2021 12:04

Our house is a 3 bed semi with a long driveway, our attached neighbour extended to a 5 bed yet we pay more by £200/year

Pasithea · 14/09/2021 12:04

We have no lights outside no road maintenance , now the council are threatening us to stop our bin collection. I get so angry about council tax.