To think we *might* be doing women a disservice?

[DearFatties]

I’ve been listening to the conversations around Emma Raducanu - firstly, this isn’t about her or her achievement, what she has done is amazing and congratulations to her, but on the radio they were discussing it and it was ALL about her being a woman. Interviews with This Girl Can, people discussing women in tennis etc.

But part of me wonders; if every time a woman achieves something we make it all about her sex, are we not doing ourselves a disservice? If it was a man they were discussing, we wouldn’t be hearing from men’s charities or anything even referring to his gender, so why does it have to be such an important part of the conversation when it’s a woman? If we keep harping on about the fact that these successful people are women, rather than just people, are we maintaining this separation rather than pushing for society to further accept women on the same level with me?

I might be wrong, it was just a thought!

Yeah it does my head in. It's like every achievement is presented as ''a great achievement - for a woman'' 😏

Couldn’t agree more. There’s a post on here asking how they look so good and groomed after a match. What the fuck?

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I understand what you're getting at but it's impossible to avoid talking about the in-built structural challenges that face women in high-level sports (or in most very competitive areas for that matter). And by brushing this under the carpet and pretending that men and women are at parity you're helping women. This is not a discussion in a vacuum. Anyone like Emma Raducanu will have faced decades of having to work four times as hard as a male counterpart to get half as far as she has done.

All successful people in sport, male or female, deserve praise and support. But male sportsmen haven't faced the constant knocks on their competence and confidence that women are subjected to. Or the scrutiny or their appearance and private life.

From my perspective, as the parent of a 10 year-old girl who is already seeing her confidence chipped away at by boys who subtly put girls down, suggest they won't go as far as boys etc, I'm really grateful for role models like Emma. The more people like her who come through the system, the more girls like my daughter and others will feel that they can succeed.

interesting perspective... thanks for sharing it.

@thepeopleversuswork

I understand what you're getting at but it's impossible to avoid talking about the in-built structural challenges that face women in high-level sports (or in most very competitive areas for that matter). And by brushing this under the carpet and pretending that men and women are at parity you're helping women. This is not a discussion in a vacuum. Anyone like Emma Raducanu will have faced decades of having to work four times as hard as a male counterpart to get half as far as she has done.

All successful people in sport, male or female, deserve praise and support. But male sportsmen haven't faced the constant knocks on their competence and confidence that women are subjected to. Or the scrutiny or their appearance and private life.

From my perspective, as the parent of a 10 year-old girl who is already seeing her confidence chipped away at by boys who subtly put girls down, suggest they won't go as far as boys etc, I'm really grateful for role models like Emma. The more people like her who come through the system, the more girls like my daughter and others will feel that they can succeed.

Absolutely this.

It’s good that girls have her as a role model. But that should only be based on her skills/work ethic etc, and the way she looks etc shouldn’t come into it

It is an interesting perspective and not one I have thought about before to be honest.
If this had been a British teenage boy , his sex would have been irreverent to the actual win.

Irrelevant rather , sorry

The man giving the speech congratulating both on their smiles

Can you imagine that for a male competitor

When women’s prize money in tennis is on par with men’s, when we invest in girls’ sport at the same level as boys’ and people like McEnroe stop making dickish comments about teenage girls not having what it takes, then we can stop highlighting the fact that a women has done well.

The structural inequalities are real and we should acknowledge them. We shouldn’t pretend that it’s as easy for a girl to do well as a boy, because it just isn’t true.

The game is segregated by sex so her sex is irrelevant: she's playing against other females so "good for a girl" makes no sense. I thought the discussion was around her being British (because we're not that good) and because she's young.

When there are threads devoted to how the competitors look, that is in line with the compliments on smiles mentioned upthread. Honestly it’s so depressing that people can’t just admire her for her amazing talent, skill, intelligence, ability to do exams while playing tennis at the highest level etc etc

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

When women’s prize money in tennis is on par with men’s, when we invest in girls’ sport at the same level as boys’ and people like McEnroe stop making dickish comments about teenage girls not having what it takes, then we can stop highlighting the fact that a women has done well.

The structural inequalities are real and we should acknowledge them. We shouldn’t pretend that it’s as easy for a girl to do well as a boy, because it just isn’t true.

I agree wi the all of this, and in the Olympics how women have to fun themselves etc, my point is though that if we mainly focus on the fact that she’s a woman, rather than the fact she is a talented individual and look at her focus, her game playing, her history etc, then aren’t we almost reaffirming that it IS Amazon her BECAUSE she’s a woman? Rather than in spite of?

I awlays refused to go to "women in business" type events when I lived that world. If you want me to speak at an event fine (maybe) but find a better reason than because I'm the only woman you can think of.

I find it particularly odd when sport's women are help up in this way. Yes of course their achievements are amazing but not because they are women, they haven't succeeded in a man's world when they're playing against other women (and long my that continue).

Prize money in women's sport is tricky because on the whole (less so Tennis) a lot more people watch men's sport. I watched a bit of the Women's football this afternoon, the standard is way higher than it was a decade ago but it's still like watching lower league men's football. If there isn't the demand to watch it, there isn't going to be the money. Women's football is the same game, played the same way only slower. Women's tennis is actually quite a different game.

@TheHouseILiveIn

The game is segregated by sex so her sex is irrelevant: she's playing against other females so "good for a girl" makes no sense. I thought the discussion was around her being British (because we're not that good) and because she's young.

The actual game may be segregated by sex. But the business of being a professional sports person in the public eye is not segregated and yet men and women are subject to massively different standards and treatments by the media and public.

And, as @DazzlePaintedBattlePants rightly points out, most male sportsmen make far more money than women.

It's not a level playing field in any way, shape or form, and the women and girls who succeed here do so against massive odds.

The focus of most coverage I’ve seen (admittedly nothing in depth) has been on her young age rather than her sex.

@SaturdaySpread
Women's football this afternoon, the standard is way higher than it was a decade ago but it's still like watching lower league men's football

Women's football in England is an interesting one because Fifa banned them from playing on their pitches in 1921, despite it being more popular than men's football. I think it was in the 70s they retracted the ban and it wasn't till late 2000s they apologised, but by that point, woman's football was no longer popular. But if they hadn't done the stupid ban because football is unsuitable for women, there is nothing to really say that actually womens football would be more popular

I think the angle they're trying to come from is 'Look how great this woman is for being the best in their profession and being aknowleged for it despite the challenges women face' but it comes off as 'This woman did a good thing considering she's a woman'

@antinerak yes probably, but I think from the conversation I heard it was just so constant, like ‘Wow, she’s a woman!’ Rather than, wow she’s a fantastic player and a lovely person who can be a great role model. I agree that it’s important to touch on female vs male sports and the differences, but I just hate that the conversation I heard was ALL about her gender

[quote DearFatties]@antinerak yes probably, but I think from the conversation I heard it was just so constant, like ‘Wow, she’s a woman!’ Rather than, wow she’s a fantastic player and a lovely person who can be a great role model. I agree that it’s important to touch on female vs male sports and the differences, but I just hate that the conversation I heard was ALL about her gender[/quote]
I agree completely! She doesn't need to be referred to as a woman when she's done much more important and impressive things than existing as a woman. I don't think I've ever seen Andy Murray referred to as 'The young man who plays tennis' or similar. He's allowed to be referred to as a great tennis player and person first, male second so why not her?

Surely the only relevance of her being a woman would be if there was something specific related to being a woman that made her achievement harder than it would be for a man.

If she was competing in a tournament open to all men as well as women, then the fact that she has overcome her natural physical disadvantages (speed / power etc) would be incredibly relevant, or if men were competing in the women's category.

I can foresee a time in the not too distant future when a woman winning a woman's tennis tournament is a genuine acheivement, but luckily we're not there yet.

She is a bloody good tennis player. Having watched the game it was far more entertaining than most men’s games. Nothing to do with being a woman. All about being a dedicated , talented sports person.
I chose to work in a profession which like most had been male dominated. I didn’t qualify because I was a woman. I qualified because I was a bright, talented and driven individual. They didn’t give away degrees just based on sex.

I agree. We absolutely need to talk about the barriers women face. But we need a balance. I don't want her held up as a role model just to girls, but to kids of all ages. Why shouldn't she inspire the next Andy Murray?

It's a bit like all the books aimed at girls full of inspirational women. They are not bad books! But I'd like to just see lots of women in the inspirational people books. This normalises the idea of women achieving great things just as equal people. And it doesn't silo it off into a girl's book that girls read.
I also feel that as a society we are very focused on identity and that isn't always very helpful. If girls typically 'don't' to X and your identity is all focused on being a girl, how is that going to help you to pursue X if it's your thing? It's not.

People are more than a list of identity tick boxes.