It's a work one

[leopardprintandzebras]

This is a mixture of are we being unreasonable and hr question.

Basically (I've name changed as this can be linked to a few of my other threads) I work in the care sector. Domiciliary care.

We have to log in and out of calls using one of those scan things qr code of something. We work every day of the year. All through pandemic etc.

During the pandemic we didn't have to sign in and out. Recently we have had a lot of staff leave like 15-20%. It's caused us to be very busy and our calls are back to back with 5 minutes travel time even if the journey normally takes 15!

We finish at 10 pm. When it's late and we have to people to bed they don't want us hanging around in the house (perfectly understandable) so we don't log out and it lets us play catch up a bit on time. If we didn't do this I think we would be home about 10:45-11 and we don't get paid travel. We are paid by the minute.

Anyway the manager has now said if we don't log out we will only be paid 15 mins of the call.

Can they legally do this? Only about 10% of our clients are private rest is adult social care. They will still charge the client for the entire call.
There has obviously been uproar within the staff and we have said give us more travel but they can't at the moment as we don't have enough staff to care for all clients.

Please can anyone advise on this??

Do you think wabu?

Think you may have your answer as to why people have left. Your workplace aren’t going to bend, as they are making a hefty profit if they are charging full whack to the client and only 15min is being paid to the staff. No idea how you are expected to make a living or have a happy workplace - I’m guessing clients aren’t happy about staff being late for calls?

I’ve no idea if it’s legal as it would depend on the contract with the client, it’s certainly morally wrong - but that’s not law.

I would just vote with my feet.

They haven't implemented it yet. They left for various reasons. A lot to do with the manager and co ordinators etc.

The hour calls we do we will be in them for 45 at the least and would only leave if the client said to go.

Then I think you have to live with the decision.

I can't live with it until I know if it's legal or not.

Union. Union. Union.

It has never ever been reasonable that the entire journey time isn't paid, and it's extremely unreasonable to dock your pay.

However, i don't get why you don't log out at the end of the night calls? Is it because the call should be an hour but it takes less time? But, if you are going to be docked pay, you have to do it properly, no matter what the clients think about it. And if they want to change that, they have to take it up with your management.

What does your contract say? I’m not sure where you posted, would it be better in legal?

I’m sorry this is happening, they need to pay carers more not less.

I work in care, My company are exactly the same. Unless, say the visit ends at 22:30 and you click out at 22:16, and you log it in the notes, Call the office and tell them so they can authorize a full visits pay. It's a ballache.

When I started in home care I was told that if I turned up for the call and the service user was out, turned me away or cut the time short, I got paid for the whole time. Do you have a similar agreement? If they are going to cut your wages short because the client is telling you to go, tell the client to check their bills and refuse to pay for the whole call, only for the time you are there. Once the service provider gets hit with losing their cut they will change their tune.

But also OP, I would certainly join a Union. I've been in care for years, You need one. Unfortunately a lot of care companies are pretty sneaky and will do so many things that they can't actually do. In an industry like care where most people are on poor contracts with a very small amount of guaranteed hours, Coordinators etc know they can pretty much do whatever they want because their staff are so desperate for the hours to pay their bills that they won't risk upsetting them.

Bear in mind whether clocking out gives you any protection - if the person gets out of bed and has a fall at 10.30 but you clocked out at 10.15, it's evidence you weren't there and weren't involved in them being injured/dropped. Could they be using this as part of a charging structure as well? I'm not in care but my timesheets are used for charging and for budgeting future work packages.

Its legal if it’s in your contract - eg my contract states I clock in and out at certain times. If I clock in a minute late or a minute early, I get docked 15 mins. So I could lose 30 mins per shift.
But it states that in my contract. People either accept it or don’t stay.

@Bargebill19 that isn't legal if it takes you under minimum wage for the hours you work, no matter what is in your contract.

15 or 30 mins docked wouldn’t take you under minimum wage. It is legal because you are getting what you’ve worked. And you stated that via the clocking in and out. All the agencies I’ve worked with have operated this system - some are multinational and employ thousands. Even the unions agree it’s legal. Not nice, but it is legal.
Those that can’t abide by the rules get docked and lose money.

Sorry let me be clear. We are paid by the minute. Hence logging in and out. However we are very short staff so have no travel time (we don't get paid for the travel either)

We are supposed to finish at 10 but the rounds take us past 11! This is why once the client is in bed we then go. We then can catch up on time. We are in the call for 45 mins but work want to pay us 15 if we don't clock out.

The reason we don't clock out is we get paid approx 4.75 hours when we are working 4-10pm!! (Or the morning etc) so if we were to work until 11 we would only get an extra 45-1 hour pay. So we work for less than we should already

Thank you for all the replies so far

Join a union!

15 or 30 mins docked wouldn’t take you under minimum wage.

Many care workers earn NMW. Any deduction would take them under.

I think it’s right op. You don’t get paid travel and only paid foe the mins you work, as such, if you don’t log out and claim to be working fifteen mins more it’s claiming for work you didn’t do.

I get the issues round travel time. You count them as working hours, and They don’t. If you signed a contract saying you agree they are not working hours then the hours you work are the hours you are with the clients,

The reason we don't clock out is we get paid approx 4.75 hours when we are working 4-10pm

Is this including travel time? This seems the disconnect. You see it as working (and I agree but it’s irrelevant) they don’t and that’s what your contract will say. So you are paid 4.75 hours becayse that’s what you technically worked. You basically work five hours out of ten becayse of travel time.

Sorry that should say working five hours out of six, you basically travel for an hour and fifteen throughout that

@CorrBlimeyGG

In this case they are claiming for hours not worked. That’s fraud. The consequences are that they only get paid for 15 mins if they don’t clock out when they leave. Travel time isn’t paid and is irrelevant.
Minimum wage doesn’t enter into it. If the staff don’t like the conditions of the contract, then they need to vote with their feet.

@Bluntness100 puts it better than perhaps I have.

I’m out of date so contact ACAS but I think the Working Time Regulations require travel time between appointments to be treated as working time, this overrides a contract. This time is then used to calculate hours worked for NMW.

I think they can require you to log in and out but this would help you by showing true travel time.

I agree also contact your TU.

I think their may be a shift in power in the care industry over the next few years with good employers attracting staff and poor ones struggling/failing to achieve minimum staffing levels. Poor employers may find they have to change or go out of business.

So there's a couple of things here, if they don't pay travel time and also don't pay mileage, the way they have set up puts the risk there that you end up being paid less than minimum wage which is an issue. You would therefore have right to challenge. If they are contracted with the authority then it is worth raising with them as they are likely in breach of contract if the contracts in place are robust enough to cover this... most are. ACAS would be the best option but do review your contract. If this is a new change and contracts haven't been reissued and you havent been through some form consultation due to change of T&Cs you also have cause to challenge

Not unlawful to not pay travelling time.
But would depend on your pay rate.

But I suspect that there will be an argument regarding the travel time - eg the employer says a to b is 5 mins, but the carer actually takes 20mins to travel.

You said you have to log in and out, you cant just choose not to log out. What's wrong is not being paid for travel!

But who decides how long it takes for travel? Google? (Often wrong) the employer? The employee? The bit I posted doesn’t clarify that.