To think the government needs to crack down on religious groups over CSA?

[Mlhactive]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270

Religions have been getting away with this since time immemorial. I saw on the news that the Jehova’s Witnesses don’t allow a member to report abuse unless there were two witnesses. How is this allowed? If a non-religious organisation had that policy it would be banned. But no matter how often stories like this come out it keeps happening. Something has to be done. Sanctions on groups who have been found to turn a blind eye maybe. Teaching children that sexual purity is more important than anything and that outsiders can’t be trusted should be considered child abuse.

I see no point in targeting only religious institutions because 90% of CSA victims have no link to religion or a religious institution. Even the report itself the OP linked to says that only 10% of CSA victims were abused by a predator employed by or linked to a religious organisation.

10% seems like a lot to me. Especially since victims being encouraged to keep quiet might mean that it's actually higher.

Religion is not the cause of the abuse but it is the cause of the cover-up when they place the reputation of the institution above the welfare of victims

Exactly this - though the concerns over "reputational damage" apply elsewhere too (children's groups, professional associations and even families)

Trouble is, few of the others pretend to be exemplars of all that's right in quite the same way, and even fewer have an "ultimate boss" who's conveniently unavailable when it comes to a grievance - except apparently to the leaders who claim to have a unique relationship with him

Therefore I agree with you that organised religions deserve a special focus

Even the report itself the OP linked to says that only 10% of CSA victims were abused by a predator employed by or linked to a religious organisation

This is true, but it's worth remembering that the figures are skewed by how few belong to one
I'm suggesting that organised religion's a good thing to attract people to, but it would be interesting to see what would happen to those figures if the UK was more of a churchgoing nation

Oh heck, that should have said I'm NOT suggesting organised religion's a good thing to attract people to ...

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Jaysmith71

It is the cause of coverups? I don’t think so either. There was a lot of covering up going on in state run child homes in northern England when the CSA gangs were grooming and abusing girls up there. Also, in state run homes numerous cases where a member of staff is doing CSA...also cover ups happen. It happens too to vulnerable children in mental health units. Doctors practices. Etc everywhere it happens those involved will do cover ups.

Guilt causes cover ups, not religion.[/quote]
And yet, an inquiry has concluded that religion is a huge factor in CSA victims being let down and disbelieved.

I'm actually astonished someone is trying to argue that religion isn't a problem when the link in the OP gives detailed information of how it is very much a serious problem

And if there is a pedophile/registered sex offender in the JW’s congregation they don’t tell parents. Apparently if he’s said he’s sorry enough times and been reproved by the elders that’s fine and there’s no danger to anyone’s children anymore. Parents should have the right to know these things.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Mlhactive
You can't seriously think that religion is irrelevant in this?

Yes I do think religion is irrelevant. Because we find CSA and cover ups in every organisation that cares for or is for children. We find it in
Families (most often)
Sports Associations
Girl/Boy Scouts
Nurseries
Orphanages/Child Homes
Schools
GPs/CAMHS/therapists
Dentists

It is literally everywhere. So to think that religion is somehow a cause of CSA makes no sense. It is just one of many organisations used by sex predators to target children for CSA.[/quote]
Yet it's far more prevalent in religious groups who, unlike all the organisations you listed, are not legally bound to have safeguarding structures in place. Which makes it easier to get away with abuse.

[quote RJnomore1]@PlanDeRaccordement you are right that it’s everywhere. I’m not suggesting religion is a cause of it happening.

However the specific power dynamics and structures of religion especially high control groups where conformity secrecy and distrust of outsiders is encouraged make great circumstances to keep it brushed under the carpet. That’s the issue. The psychology of religion and cult brings additional pressures that say the scouts doesn’t - concern for your eternal life usually if you fall out of favour.[/quote]
Indeed, and to add, when your family and community is part of that group and invested in the beliefs of the group, it's much harder to speak up to family and friends because essentially you're throwing their whole lifestyle into doubt. whereas someone being abused in, for example, Girl Guides, doesn't have the same impact because your entire family and community are also (presumable) not Girl Guides as well.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Well the OP is whether the government should crack down on religious groups over CSA.

I see no point in targeting only religious institutions because 90% of CSA victims have no link to religion or a religious institution. Even the report itself the OP linked to says that only 10% of CSA victims were abused by a predator employed by or linked to a religious organisation.

So, the government needs to step up policing and awareness of CSA for all the organisations in which it occurs...especially families. Keep in mind that for children under six 50% of CSA is done by a family member, and this declines as the child gets older to 30% done by a family member for ages 12-17.

So it seems wrong to me to go after only religion which accounts for only 1 in 10 victims and do nothing to prevent the other 9 victims of CSA from happening.

How many victims before they do specific crackdowns then?

2 in 10?

5 in 10?

1 in 10 is absolutely huge, especially in terms of real victims, it's is absolutely enough for them to do something about it

@PlanDeRaccordement

Well you implied it in your OP. Otherwise you’d have said should the government crack down on CSA...not crack down on religious groups for CSA. It sounded very anti-religion to me when religion is not causing CSA or even a primary place where CSA occurs.

Imagine being more offended that someone is anti-religion than you are about religious groups getting away with abusing children.

The OP didn't imply 'only' religious groups should be 'targeted' - it would be a bit of a long post if she said "and also, X, Y, Z" etc

What do you want the government to do exactly?

@PlanDeRaccordement

I’m not sure that CSA is linked to religion.

CSA is in every religious group, but also in non religious groups/communities/families.

For example, there is CSA in religion run orphanages and CSA in state run orphanages. It’s not religion that is causing the CSA.

I do think that religious groups should have a recognised duty of care and safeguarding for children within that religion. But beyond that, I don’t see how we can argue that religion leads to CSA or is responsible for CSA.

I can agree that religion is not the root cause of CSA. But it must definitely is a reason that once cases are identified they are swept under the carpet and not dealt with, often leaving the perpetrators free to abuse again and again.

The public image of the religion or cult as a force for good is at the very heart of this. Scandal cannot be countenanced and the ongoing victims of CSA are the collateral damage.

Of course CSA is not confined solely to religious organisations. But to ignore the particular reasons that these types of institutions provide a fertile ground for abusers is dangerous and wrong.

*However, we should name the real, overall problem. That problem is MEN.

And, before anyone comes at me with NAMALT, I have amazing sons and DH etc. They all recognise that men (as a social class) are THE problem*

Tell that to my relative who was subjected to csa by nuns for years.

I want the government to make it a legal requirement for any disclosure or suspicion of child abuse to be reported to the police particularly if its to anyone viewed as an authority figure and I want it to be a criminal offence not to do so.

it's far more prevalent in religious groups who, unlike all the organisations you listed, are not legally bound to have safeguarding structures in place

Well, I learn something new on here every day; if that's correct I honestly didn't know

Not that "safeguarding structures" would make the least difference to their attitudes, but that they don't need to have them is an utter disgrace - and another example of inappropriate kid glove approaches to organised religion

@RJnomore1

I want the government to make it a legal requirement for any disclosure or suspicion of child abuse to be reported to the police particularly if its to anyone viewed as an authority figure and I want it to be a criminal offence not to do so.

This.

There are very, very specific obligations teachers for example have to follow when they have a safeguarding concern. And sanctions are given to those who do not safeguard effectively. I want the government to impose the same on religious groups, as well as providing training and monitoring

The Two witness thing is no it a rule within jws.

Also just like with COE and catholics, abusers abuse. An abuser will find an umbrella organisation whether its the coe, Catholics, jws, your local school or a care home. Abusers will seek out these places.

This is not about religion at all.

And how could the government crackdown on what?

Pure bullshit since the government cant even get people to report rape with all their crap policies and lack of investment over decades.....

People really think the government gives a shit...

The two witness thing IS a rule. This sky news report from this week quoted directly from the elders handbook. The video report shows it being opened and the text in the book.

news.sky.com/story/there-was-no-reprimand-nothing-changed-survivors-criticise-jehovahs-witness-elders-for-failing-to-act-over-child-sexual-abuse-claims-12396672

This is not only about JWs but let’s make sure there isn’t misinformation on this thread.

I want the government to make it a legal requirement for any disclosure or suspicion of child abuse to be reported to the police particularly if its to anyone viewed as an authority figure and I want it to be a criminal offence not to do so

An excellent idea, though with a caveat ... such is the secrecy among some of these people that they'd probably stop mentioning it even among themselves, just on the offchance it got back to someone with a conscience who'd blab

It is clear from many posts that people haven't actually been reading the report but are basing their reaction on their own assumptions and equally ignorant news reports.
It is absolutely pointless trying to go down the road of telling religious to alter their religious procedures. It's a bit like directing a religion to alter their prayer rituals because when they close their eyes they can't see what is going on around them.
The issue is not with the religious procedures, including the 2 witness rule which is nothing to do with hearing abuse cases but is about removing people from a religion (notably the report says that JWs are the only group who actually bother to do this anyway). The substantive issue is with the abuse of trust within religious settings and structures. Should religious settings be subject to greater regulation? Should all charitable trustees including those for religious charities be required to undergo external accredited child protection training and DBS checks? Should all charities be required to keep a register of volunteers and provide them with external accredited child protection training and DBS checks? I would say yes to these questions as I think it would have prevented many of the dreadful bodge jobs that are described in the report when it comes to handling reports of abuse but most importantly, preventing them.

I think it's brilliant they've actually properly looked into this and it's in the news.

It's interesting that the victims say "X happened" "Y happened" and the JW response says "X doesn't happen" "Y doesn't happen."

A sadly familiar story.

@Hothammock " It's a bit like directing a religion to alter their prayer rituals because when they close their eyes they can't see what is going on around them."

No it isn't

Concealing crime is not a religious ritual.

Or, if it is, the religion is a criminal one.

I’m a CSA survivor, who grew up in a conservative Evangelical church. There were key members in the church (and I’m certain the pastor was one of them) who knew that my F was sexually abusing my DSis and me, and protected him. The reason: they didn’t want to bring shame upon the church.

That is the key reason why churches didn’t report CSA. This still happens. A friend of mine was told not to report her H to the police for sexually abusing her teenage DD. She was told that she was to blame for not being a good enough wife as well. Again, the reason given for not reporting the abuse was not to ‘bring shame upon the church.’

I found it very distressing that churches were still covering up instances of CSA. I knew only

I really do think that it should be an offence to cover up CSA offences, and particularly those who actively prevent people from reporting them to the police.

I don’t think sexual abuse is more prevalent in religious institutions than elsewhere. But for me, the issue is that religious leaders have far too much influence over their members and can tell them that they ‘answer to a higher authority’ than the law of the land.