What is the point of mandatory vaccination to work in care?

[DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo]

Of another industries, for that matter?

Months and months ago, when vaccines where just becoming available, I believed that being vaccinated against COVID would protect you from a: catching Covid, and b: passing it on.

I therefore thought that if you worked with vulnerable people, it seemed very reasonable that you should be vaccinated to protect them, even if you weren't concerned about yourself.

Now this has morphed into a vaccine that doesn't stop you contracting Covid, doesn't stop you being infectious, but should stop you getting very sick, I feel differently.

My family are all double vaccinated.
We've all contracted Covid over the last month or so, and early on, passed it on unwittingly.

AIBU to no longer see the reasoning in insisting care workers etc. MUST be vaccinated to keep their jobs?

Completely agree. And it’s quite scary that bodily autonomy is being taken away from people and their employment opportunities narrowed. A member of my family has been an NHS nurse for over 30yrs+ and is constantly being harassed by managers at work now wanting updates on her “covid vaccination plans”.

[quote Pineappleunder]@PurpleOkapi
But vaccinated people are so much less likely to catch covid. If you don't catch it then you can't pass it on.[/quote]
And if you don't have it, you can't pass it on.
Regular tests for all staff is so much better.

@PurpleOkapi I'm not a statistician but I can tell the state of the hospitals I work at and post vaccination, hospitalisation, ICU use and deaths are just not taking off in the way they did in the previous 2 waves, despite fewer and fewer restrictions.

@Booknooks

Something funny, or is that your sole contribution to the thread, dear?

The Covid board has many, many vaccinated people who have contacted Covid - @DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo

For those who didn't hear at the back:

The ZOE study calculates your risk of getting Covid after being vaccinated is between 1 in 500 and 1 in 3,333 (0.2 - 0.003%).

You're three times less likely to get Covid if you are vaccinated, but there are approximately 9 times as many people in that cohort than there are unvaccinated. You have to bear that in mind.

@AJB3001

Occupational health has stipulated for many many years you need to be up to date on all vaccinations and have antibodies to varicella. This is not anything new.

To be honest, I looked at the Covid vaccine in isolation and didn't realise that health care workers HAD to have various vaccinations in 'normal' times.

That does make me feel differently.
If general vaccines are also mandatory then I can see why this would be.

presumably the same reason they need rubella, mumps, TB, diphtheria, tetanus and all the hepatitis jabs?

I work in care atm.

I have never had mandatory vaccinations before COVID. No one has ever asked the status of any of the above.

The only vaccine drive we have is for flu every year but its not compulsory.

[quote DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo]@Booknooks

Something funny, or is that your sole contribution to the thread, dear?[/quote]
Well that's rich from someone who yawned at another poster.

@ilovesooty

The old 'plural of anecdote is not data' twaddle is VERY boring and lazy.

@LemonSwan

presumably the same reason they need rubella, mumps, TB, diphtheria, tetanus and all the hepatitis jabs?

I work in care atm.

I have never had mandatory vaccinations before COVID. No one has ever asked the status of any of the above.

The only vaccine drive we have is for flu every year but its not compulsory.

So are they mandatory, or not, then?

Here's some facts for you www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
@DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo

In early August in Ireland, where I am, approx 10% of Covid cases were in vaccinated people. Essentially none of these are in HDU / ICU.

The fact is people who are vaccinated are less likely to catch Covid, less likely to transmit it, and less likely to be seriously ill. By a significant factor.

Vaccination in Ireland will soon be at 90% of the adult population. The level of risk for everyone is therefore much, much lower.

I'm a nurse. Double vaxed. 6 and 11 year old both had covid recently. Both me and dh didn't catch it. I was cuddling kidding them.both as well

I'm glad you didn't get it, @Christmasfairy2020 👍

If general vaccines are also mandatory then I can see why this would be.

Other than front-line HCP, employers are generally avoiding making it mandatory.

Currently the vaccine is still licensed under emergency provisions. Once it is formally approved in 2022, any workplace can ask for you to be vaccinated, just as they do fit a wide range of existing vaccines.

The old 'plural of anecdote is not data' twaddle is VERY boring and lazy.

It's apt though, especially when your starting point is that 'me & all my family are vaccinated & still caught Covid'.

Surely it's clear to you that that's not data and therefore irrelevant to your point. And that such data is readily available by checking reliable sources.

So are they mandatory, or not, then?

It's up to the employer.

Sadly, @EarringsandLipstick , I think data in this instant is no longer accurate as many people have understandably lost faith in the process.

I'm aware that this will appear anecdotal, of course, as I'm not pointing to an official study, but (some / many ) people are no longer getting PCR tests or registering positive LF tests as there is no point / need.

I think its also a business thing. If i was looking for care for an elderly reli, I'd be asking if all the staff were double jabbed.

Plural of anecdote is not data may be a cliche but it's true.

If we're going for anecdata, I've been in close prolonged contact with multiple people who have tested positive and in some cases, been very unwell with it - including one unmasked and coughing, spluttering and shouting at me at length. I've not been ill once - now, this may be due to having Covid last March, this may be due to the AZ, it may be sheer blind luck - but if I've got away with it despite taking medication that depresses my immune system, I'm not going to say that this proves it's not worth bothering with vaccination; sometimes relying upon luck isn't enough.

When I was backroom NHS staff, I had to pass tests for TB and Measles immunity before I could start work putting notes on shelves in the basement. Before I could start biologics, I had to pass a further TB test before I could start medication - not just for my benefit, but because if there were to be a resurgence of TB, I'd become infectious. Either of these scenarios had a conditionality that if needed, I would have to be vaccinated. Meh, seems fair enough, I wanted a job/medication, they wanted to not cause an outbreak in vulnerable people.

But then people think that it's not worth bothering with something that does help, at least to some degree, prevent absences, illness and potential deaths when in direct contact with some of the most vulnerable people? I'd have a vaccine if it reduced the risk of catching or transmission by even ten per cent, as that ten per cent could be somebody's loved relative and whilst others may be perfectly happy with a random grandma popping her clogs before the full value of the house has been eaten up by care costs, I'd far rather it wasn't my fault she was slowly suffocating and drowning because I'd done what I could to reduce the risk.

Vaccinated people are probably less likely to get infected, but it's not clear how much less likely. It's also not clear whether those who do get infected are more, less, or equally likely to infect others in real-life conditions. Without having any idea what either of those numbers are, it's impossible to say whether the bottom line is that being vaccinated markedly reduces a person's likelihood of infecting others. It may be that they're dramatically less likely to get infected and also less likely to infect others if they do get infected, so the difference would be very stark. It may also be that they're only slightly less likely to get infected, and more likely to infect others because they're less likely to know that they're infected, so that on balance getting vaccinated provides little or no benefit to others. There's just not enough data to say either way, because that research hasn't been done in anything approaching a controlled manner.

Of course hospitalisations and deaths will be lower now that everyone high risk and most low-risk adults have been vaccinated. No one's disputing that vaccination reduces severity of symptoms and the likelihood of death. What I'm taking issue with is the lack of data to support the assumption that a person being vaccinated makes that person substantially less likely to infect a colleague or client/patient. All of it is justified by repeating "You're putting others at risk by not getting vaccinated!" when no one has any real idea whether that's true or not.

Setting aside the issue of fairness to those whose jobs are impacted, this approach is really self-defeating. The unfortunate habit of dressing up hopeful speculation and somewhat-educated guesswork as indisputable facts is what's behind many people's distrust of the vaccines. I would hope no one's basing their decisions on anything anyone says on MN, but when people in authority do it, it's a real problem. When authorities say "We know such-and-such is true" and it's apparent to the listener than they don't know that, they're just guessing and hoping, then the listener isn't going to believe them when they say things like "We know the vaccine is safe." Even if the listener has no reason to believe the vaccine isn't safe, the reassurance won't be effective, because they've already lost credibility with that listener. If the goal is to get more people vaccinated, those pushing for it need to be more honest and transparent about what they know and what they don't.

I have worked in care for the past 10 years and confirm it is not mandatory for other vaccines in fact on one occasion I was with an agency carer who also worked for the nhs, when we were attacked by an elderly lady suffering from dementia. His response was he was glad he had his hepatitis vaccine up to date whereas when I asked my employer what I should do I was told I wasnt entitled to it and had to pay privately which was over £60 for the course. People who are commenting about mandatory vaccines o obviously work for nhs where their employer doesnt treat you like you are disposable.

[quote DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo]@ilovesooty

The old 'plural of anecdote is not data' twaddle is VERY boring and lazy.

[/quote]
And people will continue to repeat it remind posters like you who seem to forget that fact and base their opinion on the people they know personally rather than the actual data of hundreds of thousands of people.

So are they mandatory, or not, then?

re. rubella, mumps, TB, diphtheria, tetanus and all the hepatitis jabs, flu

No they are not mandatory in care.

I had my first jab in the first week it came out last Dec, and the second in Spring - mainly through fear that if I did not get Pfizer immediately I would be stuck with Astra zeneca as my only choice. Which from the get-go in trials looked like not a good idea for women of child bearing age; and I am no expert doctor! It was plain to see.

It annoys me that it took months for the issues with Astra to be acknowledged. And makes me not very keen to be first inline for the booster. Past experience has shown me they are not very forthcoming with issues.

I will get it but I will bide my time as much as I can this time.

And it irritates me that there has been no discussion about the immunity differences between different jabs. I cant remember where but there was an article recently which said immunity of Pfizer at 6 months is close to Astra post 2-3 months.

So why should I be getting another jab when my immunity is still higher than someone 2-3 months into Astra who doesn't have to get it yet.