AIBU to think it is possible to close the attainment gap for SEN children?

[Mendthegap]

My DD is 13 and has SEN including dyslexia and ASD.
In primary school DD had three years of amazing support which really helped her progress and was narrowing the gap between her and her peers. DD had various people involved to support her but one person in particular worked with DD on a daily basis and coordinated the support and was great at adapting support to meet DDs needs. This was at a state primary school.

DD is just about to enter year 9.
A few weeks ago I had a discussion with her SENCO where I stated that the gap between DD and her peers was bigger than ever - partly due to DD not receiving the correct type of support since starting secondary school a d also due to DD not being access online learning dual ring lockdown. The SENCO told me that being able to close the gap for SEN kids was a myth and just not possible, state schools don’t have the resources to be able to do that and the government can’t afford bespoke packages for each individual child to be taught at specialist independents to enable this. I was really taken back by this comment as I do think with the right support SEN children can catch up once the difficulties have been recognised and appropriate help put into place. DD has the underlying skills but needs help to achieve her potential.

I know that it’s so hard to get help for SEN children and we parents have to fight many battles but I would love to hear from anyone who’s child has closed the gap or reached their potential.

They can, my youngest is on the top table in his class but he's has a 1-1 since he started in primary. He has asc and was very difficult to manage in Nursery and the 1st year of primary. My middle child (also ASC) however hasn't had the same level of support and only just got an EHC approved after years of fighting for it, he's going into year 6 next week and he's a year behind. Because he's quiet and not disruptive they were reluctant to give him the extra help.

I teach sixth form at an independent and my dyslexic students have consistently given me the best value added (this was true in state too). I think this is because extra time and well developed coping strategies really help with wordy subjects. Don't despair!

It's possible if the child has the right support. Unfortunately not many children have the right support in mainstream state schools.

I think it depends on the type of SEN.

However, generally there isn't enough knowledge in primary to pick things up early enough, nor enough funding in general for additional support/assistance.

Wasn't the point of the senco that schools dont have the funding to close the gap? It reads as tho actually you both agree, that if funding and support are in place then the gap can be closed but without it the gap widens, and there lies your problem, lack of funding. Theres not enough funding in the education system for all of the children that need extra support. Theres not even enough funding for those that don't need extra support tbh

I caught up completely as a dyslexic as did another sibling.
It is my expectation for my dc who has SEN.

In a mainstream school I don't think it's possible, having worked in mainstream and SEN settings as a TA and as a teacher. There isn't enough of you to go around in a class of thirty and the curriculum doesn't allow for it. Many teachers don't have the skills, knowledge or want to support children with difficulties. They definitely don't have the time. Some children with difficulties aren't able to close all the gaps even with support. The SENCO is only being honest.

I worked mostly in a SEN school and was lucky enough to run a department entirely focussed on language and literacy and we did some amazing things but realistically all the children could never catch up with their peers, some could. That kind of goal makes no sense. They can get to the best point they can. The pressure for SEN children to move 2 levels each key stage when they had never done it by the point they got to us (secondary) is one of the reasons I don't teach any more

Also, different types of SEN are not equal

It used to frustrate me when my DD was in school in the 90's. A little more support and she would be have been doing a lot better. I felt that those children who could be helped should be. There are as many who couldn't and who were wrongly placed in mainstream schools, though. If it was up the schools to decide, they'd still get it wrong.
I would say that my DD has reached her potential, just not in an academic way. She's a manager in social care. She's worked her way up.

I dont think it's as simple as better schooling = kids with additional needs are able to be on the same 'level' as mainstream peers. There are some cases where no matter whether you throw money and/ or resources, that the child will not catch up. This is my kids situation

It depends on the SEN. My 15 year-old has asd and he has flourished academically but he was always going to be clever. My 8 year-old has learning difficulties and he will always be behind his peers. He managed to make loads of progress with reading during lockdown but he still can't write his name. I have dyspraxia and was given intervention for the first time at university. I got 4 c's at GCSE and 2 c's at a-level without intervention and then a 2:1 in my degree with intervention.

I think intervention helps a lot but some children have SEN that is too severe to "catch up" with their peers.

They have a point. It’s very dependent on the type of SEN though. For example, a child with diagnosed MLD, who's IQ is considerable lower than their peers, will not ‘catch up’ with those peers, regardless of the support they receive. It’s disingenuous and dangerous to say they will, and that if they don’t it’s down to poor teaching / lack of appropriate resources / lack of money etc. These children should have bespoke curriculums that serve their needs and yet all too often we as teachers are told that we must expose everyone to the same curriculum as that’s what equality is all about. If that were true, all we would need to do is place all children in mainstream classes, do away with special schools and they’d all be tickety boo.
Surprise surprise, that happened last century and special schools were closed, leading to many SEN children being failed massively by the educations system.
There is a very real danger that children are not actually ‘supported’ in real terms in school, especially when they have a 1:1. It’s so difficult as a TA not to give a child so much help that the work they produces isn’t really a true reflection of their attainment, rather than of the child’s ability to do what someone else tells them to do. As a SENCo, I would ask TAs to ensure a child has had a task explained carefully, has the appropriate resources to carry out that task, and then the TA moves away and observes how the child actually carries out the task. I have seen Y6 SEN pupils who have a diagnosis of MLD being expected to sit the SATs with support and get enough marks to score within the expected band for their age - and yet if they didn’t have that ‘support’ they’d score very little. (I’m talking about the sort of support that tells them how to do a calculation on a maths paper, or points to an answer on a reading paper)
My point is, too many children leave primary school with inflated results and secondary schools are left to pick up the pieces.

It really,really depends on their needs,abilities and strengths.

I've had kids with ASD for example, that were top of the class and also had kids that worked at y2 level in y5 and that was with making a lot of progress.

We had fairly able pupils that only needed an adult to keep them focused and on task, which always meant they didn't meet the LA's criteria for a 1:1 so we just managed the best we could. We had kids that couldn't even copy things off the board. We had kids that were brilliant verbally, but could not put any of it on paper. We worked with them to type/record instead as scribing meant taking one adult away for nearly the whole lesson.

I deliver various interventions with our kids, but that means the teacher is left on her own for the duration. We have classes with 6/7 kids on the SEN register.

Some never needed to catch up, some are on the right path, some sadly never will but as long as they're happy,learning and making progress in their own way and at their own pace,I think that's ok.

I do agree that not all SEN children will catch up with their peers, that would be impossible as needs vary so much. The SENCO and I were discussing DD who has the potential to catch up, her CAT scores were for example and average of 108 so DD does have good underlying skills.

I felt that when the SENCO said that narrowing the gap was a myth she was writing off DD.

This is a fairly pointless thread, as the range of problems and disabilities designated as SEN is absolutely vast.

The children I taught during my lifetime career in special ed would never ever be able to reach the same point as their peers. They made excellent progress, but to expect them to reach age group norms would be spectacularly ignorant, and unfair on both them and their teachers.

Maybe you could explain the kind of SEN you mean, OP?

@Mendthegap

I do agree that not all SEN children will catch up with their peers, that would be impossible as needs vary so much. The SENCO and I were discussing DD who has the potential to catch up, her CAT scores were for example and average of 108 so DD does have good underlying skills.

Does she have an EHCP? Are her needs detailed on it and the type of help and support she requires?

Do you have a concrete list of things they could do to help and are they reasonable? Is there anything in place at the moment to help her , whether she's catching up or not?

Your title of your post is a bit misleading - all Sen is different. Eldest is Sen sat a gcse aged 13 got a level 9, will be sitting 9 GCSEs next year and one a level all predicted at level 9 and hopefully an A* for the a level. They will then sit a further 5 GCSEs the following year and an another a level. Before starting their 4 a levels - if they want. But that is the current plan. No EHCP but assessment in place for one and has had Sen since aged 4. Another D.C. has an EHCP, a number of medical problems and learning problems. Was2 years behind in English (currently at primary) and with heavy intervention by me now only 4 months behind - was at least a year ahead in maths rapidly improving in maths daily and English.

So absolutely yes.

Too often resources are non existent and help and support is non existent. It’s a constant fight to get the right support (and I often fail)

Closing the gap and reaching individual potential are completely different things. My DD is going into year 9 in mainstream with an EHCP and fantastic support from the SENDCo and wider team. I fully expect her to reach her potential but the gap between DD and peers will never be closed. In fact, it will continue to widen but as long as she’s happy and fulfilled then that’s the best I can hope for.

Hi my child has been diagnosed with Dyslexia currently at primary school. The school have been notified as we had an independent assessment as the School said our child was not Dyslexic. They have said to forward the report to them and they will implement recommendations ASAP but obviously we would like a discussion around this and to agree strategies before they are implemented and ultimately be involved from the outset! They did say they will review with us…what they implement but not initially involving us? Anyone experienced this? Or have you received a different response to your child’s diagnosis and if so what should we actually be receiving or is this it?!

My outlook isn't catching up but by dc making continual progress. Yes it can be done in schools but there isn't the funding or resources in most secondary schools. Working at home has helped my dyslexic boys progress. I dont expect them to be st same level as peers but I'm happy if they are making progress - basically what they call added value. Bringing a child from where they were to where they are.

And it does matter hugely on type sen. I have one with across the board learning delays and dyslexia so he finds everything academic hard. I have one purely dyslexic but super intelligent

On side note. Have a look at Word Hornet book. You can buy it and work through it at home for 10mins a day. It's really good. We used it then moved onto toe by toe then word wasp. Theres a screening tool on their website to help u pick right level book

When DS was in reception and year 1 he really struggled academically.

In year 1 he was awarded an EHCP with some 1-1 and started to close the gap academically during year 2.

During year 3 I battled to get clear 1-1. He is now in year 7 at a mainstream school with full 1-1 and is meeting expected across the board (thriving in maths and humanities)

Now don’t get me wrong he still have many battles and socially and emotionally it’s a very very different picture but if it wasn’t for the support we fought for from a young age I know he wouldn’t be where he is now.

What the future holds who knows but he has been given the best chance and that’s all I can ask

Interesting one. I think some children who go to specialist/independent schools have access to resources and well trained/qualified staff who can help them close the gap (dyslexia focussed schools like Maple Hayes or Moon Hall or even normal indys who have a dedicated support department). Saying this, the potential for this to happen has to be there - which is not always easy to predict.

I was always frustrated that my DS made very slow progress at primary (1 year progress over 2 was usual but he was reading at age 7.5 at 11 years old so sometimes much bigger gaps opened up). He has multiple SEN like dyspraxia, dyslexia, ADD. Speech etc and has always been developmentally I would say 2-3 years behind peers (no global delay diagnosed though)

Having done home ed for almost 2 years we have achieved a similar rate working 1:1 with specialist programmes and materials like Toe by Toe and Nessy. It satisfied my curiosity to an extent as to whether I could do a better job focussing on his areas of need in a quiet environment.

At secondary he's gone to a specialist unit within mainstream where they work in small groups to the child's level. They are aiming for entry level quals rather than GCSE which I think is reasonable.

I had to weigh up whether he would do better at Maple Hays (we would have had to move though as too far to travel) and what suited his temperament, peer group etc. I'm pretty sure an academic focus would have been frustrating and things always just out of reach.

I think the SENCO was partly being honest about the state of SEN:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-58474416

but partly feels like she's giving up - as I think for some children it certainly is possible - does your child have an EHCP and are they saying then that they can't provide for needs to meet outcomes?

Support at mainstream secondary does seem somehow harder in practice to achieve - talking to SENCOs as we visited schools pre-Covid. Ours would have sunk without trace, of that I am sure!