to think that I'm going to have to choose between my PhD / career and a second child?

[CareerOrBaby]

NC for this.

Hi everyone,
I think I'm being unreasonable to be worrying about this so happy to hear if that's the case.
I'm from the UK, live in the EU.
It's always been my dream to become a lecturer, so I worked hard to get through uni (working class background, no financial help, first in my family to go to uni), and graduate with a good grade. It won me a scholarship to do my master and I'm currently completing this (the EU country I'm in is also my husband's home country).

Life plan (oh I was very naive), was to get pregnant towards the end of my master, finish master, have baby, start PhD, take a break to have second baby, finish PhD, get career started. I would've been around 33 starting my career with two children (so a year older than I am now), if this had worked out. Life had other ideas. I got pregnant towards the end of my master, lost the baby and spent the next 2 and a half years obsessing over getting pregnant again. Secondary infertility diagnosis was eventually made with my DH, we needed ICSI. I realise looking back I was in a really bad place mentally (I had also had a family death and a cancer scare with my mum within months after my MMC so it was an awful year). My master was put on the back burner and suddenly became meaningless.

Fast forward and I now have my wonderful DS through our first successful ICSI. Back in the UK, I wouldn't have qualified on the NHS due to my weight (still wouldn't), and privately it obviously costs a lot back home. Whereas in this country, there are no stipulations (just under 40 and married) and the govt pays over half the fees so each round of ICSI "only" costs 1000 euros. They also do this if you already have a child. (I'm detailing this so it's clear that to have a second child, we really need to be here).

I love being a mum, my motivation for my master has come back and I'm currently writing the dissertation. I'd love to move back to the UK to do my PhD, I'd say I have a good chance at getting into a program (I think anyway!) Husband is 100% supportive, works in IT, speaks fluent English so no worries there. But if we want to try for a second, then we have to stay here for icsi reasons. I am also happy here, but PhDs here rarely offer teaching experience and I'd just rather do it in English. I'd love another baby but at the same time, I think we could be very happy with our only child and me in my dream career. If I try to both, I won't be going for my PhD until I'm 36/37, which means I won't be working until 39/40. It just seems like I have to pick?

Of course, there is the fact that I could miss out on one while going for the other and I'm nervous of having regrets like that.

I suppose I just feel quite sad that our experience with infertility is still having an effect on my life and potential decisions?

Am I being unreasonable letting this get to me? I feel I just need to be grateful for what I have (and I am but biology making me long for another baby is hard to switch off)

Thanks all

Why would not working until you are 39/40 mean you are missing out on a career? You're just starting it a few years later - not even a large number of years, just a few. Stay where you are, have baby, and then move to UK for Phd.

I went the other way and am now a senior lecturer at a good university, in my mid 30s aiming to have a child - but will probably only have one due to age and circumstances.

However, my whole life has been sacrificed to academia - I broke major bones (think neck/back/pelvis) and had to keep working on the hourly waged lectureship at an RG uni or I didn’t get paid and it would be unlikely I’d have my contract extended. I’m lucky to have a job that’s only 90 miles from home. My friends had to move abroad / other end of the country when they were in the first 2-6 years post-doc.

Basically, you can do a PhD at any time, around family, and it will be fun / interesting. It’s the period after PhD that’s brutal. You need to be mobile (potentially to other countries), willing to take difficult / poorly paid temporary contracts, and work long hours in areas that are probably beyond your research specialism. It is not family friendly, I’m afraid. It’s a shame, as doing a PhD and having a permanent contract as a lecturer can be very family friendly! It’s the 2-6 years between them that are not.

Really, it will depend on whether your partner can move towns/countries, or if you/your partner can afford to stay at your main university where you did your PhD just picking up bits of what Americans call adjunct teaching - aka cover teaching for a term here or there.

NB. I see you are in Europe, so it may be that you can disregard all that I’ve said. I’m specifically talking about the U.K. pathway.

Sorry not to be more optimistic, but if you could drop your masters, then you possibly don’t want to inflict upon yourself / family the baptism of awfulness that is the first few years post-doc. My partner and I nearly broke up (15 years together now) and I ended up on antidepressants.

NOW, though, I have the best job in the world as a senior lecturer and I adore it. But if you had thrown kids into the mix 5 years ago I would definitely have quit and/or had a full breakdown - and I am really tough! Single parent family growing up, first gen scholar, etc. Many women didn’t make it through as they just decided it wasn’t worth it.

However, if you can afford it, or get funding (as I did) then a PhD is a marvellous thing and well-worth doing.

With all due respect, have you thought about how compatible a career in academia actually is with having two children? It's brutal and extremely demanding in terms of time, mobility, endless demands, etc. And that's assuming you can get jobs at all... Even female academics who make it often sacrifice the chance to have children in exchange. Admittedly I don't know much about the market in the rest of Europe, but as PP say, actually getting a PhD is the easy part. The hard part comes after that. How viable is an academic career in your field in the first place, before you even consider how viable it is with two DC in tow? Given that you'll want to stay put for schools etc, how will you move around to get academic jobs?

Full disclosure, I think academia is now basically a shell game that sustains itself by brainwashing those in it, but I think it's fair to say that the sacrifices involved are huge unless you are in one of the very rare fields where there are a decent number of jobs, and that's before you have any DC at all.

@Notanotherusernamenow articulates this well. I did a PhD and discovered that unless you are willing to move hours away from friends and family in order to pick up a contract for a few measly hours (with no promise of permanent employment at the end of it) then you'll find, as I did, that academia is incompatible with not just family life (I speak as a woman who wanted a family sooner rather than later) but just life in general. Ultimately I had to abandon hopes of a career in academia for not only mental health reasons but deeply practical ones (i.e. having no money!). It's genuinely mad out there I can't even tell you. Anecdotally, I know of someone working at a post 92 uni in the North West but whose full-time address is in Scotland... and better yet they consider themselves fortunate?!? Obviously they've chosen to do this rather than uproot their spouse and children but still, it's just ridiculous. I wish you well I really do but as others have suggested it's not necessarily an either/or scenario as you present it X

YANBU for wanting what you want. But an academic career is incredibly difficult to break into. Field dependent of course but even in something in demand like computer science it’s not 9-5bat first, endless hours of research , teaching and schmoozing academics. Poorly paid short term contracts etc

You’re lucky in that your husband can bankroll you (and presumably is flexible with location?). But if you want to be a mother so badly why would you have kids and not raise them?

I’d say have the second child and when they’re older go for the PhD. You can always try to be a lecturer but you will regret not having another child when you could.

Also to add I’m the daughter of an academic who has made me swear never to become one myself…

Other people have probably given you more insight into academia than I can - I don't have a clue what the job market it like for it!

But to me, it would make so much more sense to focus your 30s on having your family and trying for another baby, while you're younger and living in a country that makes it much more accessible for you.

I feel that if you pushed ahead on the career front to the expense of attempting to have the family you want, you'd always regret it. Imagine you do this and turn 40, and you happen to be really struggling to find work - or you get a job, but you absolutely hate the politics/team/establishment. You'd be kicking yourself.

You're not being unreasonable AT ALL for having feelings about this. It's not that you're ungrateful for what you have. You just have a dream and don't want to lose it. I totally get that.

Personally, I'd just look at your life as a journey. You don't have to plan everything (nothing goes to plan with 100% certainty anyway - as you've discovered). But the longer you leave having another child, the more difficult that could be for you. Whereas you could have various options career-wise, or find that having two children actually makes you lose interest in the exact working life you're thinking about right now.

As pp have said, it's the post doc phase that is not family friendly.

Kid first. Then phd. Kids will be a bit more independent by the time you are looking at post docs and you may be able to do it. If not, you will still have the kids and the phd.

95% or phd graduates do not work in academia, but it could open up other opportunities for career.

Would you still want to do the phd if there wasn't an academic career at the end of it ? If not don't do it.

Academia is a hard field.
My specific field was incompatible with having a family, I had to leave and I have now a (well paid) job in Industry.
Can I ask what have you done in the last few years while you stopped the Master? If you worked not in academia, did you like the experience?

Can I ask

Academic careers are very country-specific so advice from people based in the UK may well be irrelevant. There are loads of universities in Eurpope where you can do a PhD in English at a distance - maybe think creatively in terms of enrolment, if you don't have to be tied to a lab? I lived 700 km from the university I did my PhD at and went there once a year for the paperwork.

It's brutal and extremely demanding in terms of time, mobility, endless demands, etc

Not always. I find it very family-friendly (not in UK) since I push back against the presenteeism bullshit.

* It’s the period after PhD that’s brutal. You need to be mobile (potentially to other countries), willing to take difficult / poorly paid temporary contracts, and work long hours in areas that are probably beyond your research specialism. It is not family friendly,*

^This. Have another child

Academia in the UK is a total shitshow now at post-doc and beyond.

Have another child, so your PhD alongside developing your language skills so you can stay out if you want to.

Don’t worry about developing teaching skills at the PhD stage. They are totally undervalued in the UK system, you’ll just get used to do donkey work.

Focus on your research and you’ll probably find that is much more highly valued here if you ever want to come back. Which I particularly recommend given how insecure academia is here

*Wouldn’t particularly recommend

What field are you in? I ask because A) it's increasingly possible to do a PhD in English in a number of EU countries, and B) in some fields in the UK the chances of becoming a lecturer are almost nil.

I would say stay and have another baby, there is a time limit on that with your age whereas the PhD can be done later (I finished mine early 40s). And it would be a shame to give up your chance of another child in order to chase a dream job that might be impossible to get.

I have 2 children and work full time academia. Nit sure what subject area you are in, but I find it fits really well with young children as long as you are flexible. Don't give up! You will find a route and if we are likely to work until 70 you will still fit in decades of work. I am sure you will make it work.

@BuffySummersReportingforSanity

Full disclosure, I think academia is now basically a shell game that sustains itself by brainwashing those in it, but I think it's fair to say that the sacrifices involved are huge unless you are in one of the very rare fields where there are a decent number of jobs, and that's before you have any DC at all.

I believe the academic career is overrated. I am doing a PhD in a research intensive university where all my peers are working 70+ hours a week and keen to pursue the academic career. A large part of PhD students are very stressed or depressed; and the junior academics are no better. I have not seen any lecturer under 40 who is happy and not exhausted on most days. All the successful women professors I know are either childless or had children late (into their 40s). And someone I know moved universities 4 times in the last decade. Imagine having to move school-aged children every few years for your PhD/postdoc/lectureship!

What field are you in?

Do you have a realistic understanding of your job prospects post PhD? If you are planning to stay in academia for example?

I say this as someone with an arts PhD, ten years after graduation only one person in my cohort has a decent academic job.

Everyone else either got out (me) or are lurching from poorly paid post doc, to ad hoc teaching hours and back again. Relationships/kids/ financial security/home ownership all sacrificed to the cause.

You've actually got another issue because of Brexit. If you come back to the UK as a student, you presumably won't be earning enough for your EU citizen DH to come on a spousal visa. Unless you have large savings or your DH can get a work based visa independently this could be a problem.

Thanks everyone for your replies. And sorry for the delay getting back (DH is on paternity while I use every free minute to write my dissertation)

Your replies have been very helpful, insightful and given me a hit with the reality stick, I appreciate the honest advice from everyone. I have read every single answer, sorry I haven't answered everyone individually!

To answer some of your questions / points.
Yes, DH can bankroll me which is good and his job is an area that's in high demand so moving for him won't be a big deal. I was also happy to move, I'd been away from friends and family for ten years now. However, now I have my son, I realistically don't want to be moving around every year on temporary contracts. I really want my son to have stability so I wouldn't just walk into this without really giving it thought. So thank you all for making me think about post-doc life.

I do speak the local language, I've done my master in it. It was just extra hard because of that, I still struggle to write academically in the local language but speaking, understanding and reading is no bother. I could definitely write the PhD in English but classes etc would all be in the local language of course.

My subject area is humanities so not exactly in demand. My goal would be to stay in academia as I love writing, researching and teaching.

I guess an option would be to stay exactly where I am and do my PhD at a university here. We'd keep stability for my son, my husband's good job, there are no tuition uni fees in this country, and it's easier to do long distance, so even if I struggled after at post-doc level, I wouldn't feel like I'd uprooted my family or made us financially broke with pursing this. And more importantly, I could break any time to have a second child.

Thanks again everyone. Also for making me see it's best to try for a second baby first as the PhD is always am option for the future but a second child isn't, especially with DH's fertility issues