To ask why the NHS is cancelling operations?!

[CFEC]

I'm due to have a (much needed and waited for) op in a few weeks time, I've just rung my consultant's secretary as I haven't had a pre-op appointment letter through yet and queried it, as I wanted to make sure the operation is definitely going ahead as if nothing else, I'll be off work for 2 weeks and my boss would ideally like confirmation.

She said 'Oh, well they're cancelling A LOT of inpatient appointments, but as you'll be a day patient no, I think yours will go ahead.'

I swear I will lose my sh&^ and cry if it gets cancelled again, this will be the third time!!!

Why is the NHS cancelling operations left, right and centre?! Surely it can't be due to Covid still? If it is, what is going to happen to us all, so many people are going to die surely as a result of not getting treatment? A lot more than with Covid! Most people are double vaccinated now, this virus isn't going away, why are operations for in patients being cancelled?

"If you have the money @CFEC go private.

However, losing your 'shit' as the booking clerk is pretty pointless since they are merely a messenger and no decisions etc. It also makes YOU look a dick"

^This, shouting at some poor administrator who has no control over what goes ahead or doesn't really doesn't deserve your anger. Be kind. They are probably stretched beyond belief, get spoken to like shit on a daily basis, do more hours than they are paid for and are probably as fed up with delays, lack of money and staff and bloody COVID
If you can avoid it, go private, if you can't accept that things will be tough a lot longer and may never return to precovid levels

I predict that under the Tories we will eventually end up being charged directly for what is actually the NHS.
There will be no choice or competition. You won't get the current benefit of better service (before covid) that you currently do with private medical insurance. We will just be paying premiums to get the same service as now with so many exclusions - how could it be better than now once shareholder's need a slice of profit?! It will be like like water or rail privatisation.
So we will be paying health insurance premiums, still paying the same tax and then not be covered for everything anyway/have exclusions for pre existing conditions etc.
Things were much better under labour and anyone thinking it wasn't clearly wasn't paying attention - but I agree pfi has been a disaster in the long term.
If we keep voting for the tories we will lose free health care within a decade.

It's not down to the government, its incompetent NHS trusts

The Government is entirely responsible for the NHS, they have used it often enough in their election campaigns (as have other parties) , are you suggesting they have no control over it ? in which case why mention it in their manifesto's ?

It absolutely was NOT incompetence, @CBUK22. The hospitals were filled up with covid patients, had staff going off sick with Covid, and didn’t have any leeway in either staff or beds to cope with that.

Operating theatres were being used as covid intensive care units - those units could not do routine operations. Theatre staff were redeployed to the wards to nurse covid patients and the other unavoidable admissions - no staff in theatre = no operations.

There were no available intensive care beds for patients needing them after routine surgery - it was hard enough to find either theatre spaces or ITU beds for emergency admissions.

I cannot see how anyone can call them incompetent, for the way they responded to a huge crisis when the NHS had been systematically robbed of staff and resources for years.

I find your comment sickening, to be honest.

You're not being unreasonable OP, it's shit that operations are being cancelled. If you can afford it, I honest think going private will be worth it if your next appointment is cancelled. I almost did this during the initial lockdown as my scans were all cancelled but the NHS came through for me (3 months after my 3 month scan was due) just before I went ahead with a private booking. I did discover that private hospitals don't all charge the same, and it's worth "shopping around". It's not fair to have to use your own savings for treatment but it might still be the best option. I hope your appointment goes ahead though.

@tttigress

Difficult to know what the solution is.

But basically the NHS made a huge mistake suspending operations due to Covid. They should have just carried on, sending the Covid patients to the nightingale hospitals for triage.

I think the lockdowns will end up killing more people than Covid.

So the staff redeployed to work with Covid critical patients were often theatre nurses, anaesthetists, ODPs. Who would normally do the surgery side.

Who would then carry out these operations had they been kept on, safely? Oh and the nightingales had no staff. Staff were to go from the hospitals that wanted to send them. Guess what the hospitals thought it better to keep their staff to look after the ridiculous amount of Covid patients they were facing than send them elsewhere.

It wasn’t NHS trusts individual decisions that surgeries/procedures were cancelled. This came from high up from the government/public health/NHS England. it was the unknown, we had to prepare, clear beds, move staff in a matter of days as the patients started to come in. The second/third wave over autumn winter was even worse and longer.

Can you imagine if you those patients then caught Covid after surgery and added to the deaths as you can be very vulnerable after major surgery often needing an icu/HDU bed. It’s a no win situation.

@tttigress

Difficult to know what the solution is.

But basically the NHS made a huge mistake suspending operations due to Covid. They should have just carried on, sending the Covid patients to the nightingale hospitals for triage.

I think the lockdowns will end up killing more people than Covid.

This is seriously delusional. Where do you think the staff would have come from to do this?

to all of you working under these horrific and, in some part, avoidable circumstances.

Can I ask what IYO and Covid aside would make the NHS function better?

What is needed to improve conditions on the ground?

Regarding privatisation, personally I don’t see how it would improve healthcare.

Unless the intention would be to price out the poor to free up resources?

I mean, has any U.K. privatisation had long lasting improvements? Bar share holder profit of course.

@CBUK22

The NHS has been a disgrace throughout COVID, they've cancelled millions of appointments and treatments.

It's not down to the government, its incompetent NHS trusts.

GP's have been shockingly bad too, ours have sent out a monthly text message telling us not to go near them.

It is ultimately down to the government. The NHS don't have the staff, funding or resources to cope normally. The pandemic has just exposed it further. You can't chronically underfund a service, rely on the goodwill of staff to keep it going, throw them a clap every week and expect a world class service. My GP surgery has one GP. Three vacancies. They can not possibly run a decent service as hard as they try.

And what SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius said with bells on.

As an expert on the NHS @CBUK22 you will be aware of the number of beds available in the NHS today, and how that number has reduced over the years ?

The total number of NHS hospital beds in England, including general and acute, mental illness, learning disability, maternity and day-only beds, has more than halved over the past 30 years, from around 299,000 in 1987/88 to 141,000 in 2018/9, while the number of patients treated has increased significantly.

The NHS wasn't prepared, but being prepared is absolutely down to the Government and don't let them tell you otherwise.

I mean, has any U.K. privatisation had long lasting improvements? Bar share holder profit of course

That is a really good question. Improved service provision ? reduced prices for the consumer ? I can't think of any that have provided both ?

Wow - I knew that the number of beds had fallen a lot, but even I didn’t realise that it had more than halved, @frumpety.

@frumpety

I mean, has any U.K. privatisation had long lasting improvements? Bar share holder profit of course

That is a really good question. Improved service provision ? reduced prices for the consumer ? I can't think of any that have provided both ?

Me neither.

But what happens to all these people that need these operations? Do they just have to sit around in pain, probably with little quality of life for another 3-4 years?

Yes. That's the democratic will of the British people.

Honestly, does the fact that not one other country in the whole world funds health care like the UK not give you a tiny clue that it’s much more complex than that?

The NHS is incredibly efficient for the amount of funding it gets per capita. We regularly figure in top 10 league tables for quality of care but cost about 40% less than similar nations. Heathcare costs in the US, for example, are more than double here for much worse outcomes.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the model but greater efficiency needs capital investment in systems. You don't equivalent sized private companies trying to do things like computer systems on the cheap, because it costs more in the long run.

Who is in power for the last 10 years.....there is your answer!

I think the lockdowns will end up killing more people than Covid.

That is a really fucking stupid thing to say about something that has killed more people than anything in the last 70 years and is still going.

@frumpety Our local town has an out of hours GP run by virgin care, it was put in under an initiative to reduce people ending up at A&E when they didn't need to be.

They are open from (from memory) 07:00 to 23:00, you can rock up on the day (no appointment) ans be seen in a reasonable time, you can also book in advance. They seem to pick up a lot of the new to UK people who arent registered with a GP, do minor surgery, you can actually see a Dr. They're open at lunch time (which is obviously useful if you work).

My local GP on the other hand, works 09:00 - 18:00, shuts for 1hr at lunch. Wont let you book in advance, you have to ring on the morning and try to race to get an appointment. They have refused to see my son several times when ill despite negative coivd tests. Theyve text rouly monthly to tell us not to come to their surgery. They are only interested in phone calls.

So yes, there is a middle ground between the communist NHS and the ultra capitalist US.

And yes I'm aware that lots of GP's practices are private contractors but this is largely as a tax dodge given they get an NHS pension etc.

The thing is, it's been obvious for a long time that it cannot go on like this.

Investment in the NHS and the training of new medical staff s clearly an issue however so too is the lack of personal responsibility in this country. Type 2 diabetes is a good example of this, easily reversible but increasing exponentially.

In many ways I wish staff would work to rule to protect themselves and their health and really show the extent of the problem. The government, and the public, take NHS workers for granted and it needs to stop.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

Wow - I knew that the number of beds had fallen a lot, but even I didn’t realise that it had more than halved, *@frumpety*.

The biggest chunk was Cameron apparently. Some reduction in beds in that period is due to improvements in e.g. keyhole surgery, meaning day cases due to faster recovery.

But there was a rapid reduction in ICU beds, deliberate.

At the start of the Covid crisis, UK had 7 ICU beds per 100k, Germany had more than 30 per 100k people. That will have affected survival rates.

No wonder they don;t want a public inquiry

@frumpety

And what SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius said with bells on.

As an expert on the NHS @CBUK22 you will be aware of the number of beds available in the NHS today, and how that number has reduced over the years ?

The total number of NHS hospital beds in England, including general and acute, mental illness, learning disability, maternity and day-only beds, has more than halved over the past 30 years, from around 299,000 in 1987/88 to 141,000 in 2018/9, while the number of patients treated has increased significantly.

The NHS wasn't prepared, but being prepared is absolutely down to the Government and don't let them tell you otherwise.

So we had reasonable waiting lists and service pre COVID,not the best but OK.

Then COVID came along and we shut down the NHS to protect it.

Elective surgery is down 80%,urgent cardiac care 60% and urgent oncology 50%.

How many beds were removed from the NHS during the COVID pandemic?

My sister is a nurse and they have had 3 Dr's leave her department because the local trust will not allow them to see patients. Nurses are taking observations and completing procedures while Dr's are locked in offices in full PPE away form patients.

@Megameg56

Who is in power for the last 10 years.....there is your answer!

Labour fucked up the NHS too. Pretty sure they started the PFI scheme, for one. But too young really to remember, hopefully someone older (and preferably who has worked in the NHS under both) can come along with some input.

@donquixotedelamancha

I think the lockdowns will end up killing more people than Covid.

That is a really fucking stupid thing to say about something that has killed more people than anything in the last 70 years and is still going.

Its not really as the effects of lockdown are multifaceted and numerous- impossible to quantify for sure, but naive to dismiss the reality.

@TartanJumper These figures for number of NHS beds are skewed significantly because a significant number of beds are now bought in from the private care industry.

People who are not able to return home but are not seriously unwell are discarded to residential care where historically they would have been taking up a bed in a hospital ward.