To ask what to do if your children hate each other.

[Sunblushbugs]

Ds is 12 and a half and I’m starting to find him extremely difficult.
He HATES his younger sibling. Properly hates them and is vile to them a lot of the time. There’s absolutely nothing he wants to do if they are there. He has outgrown most things now but because he has ASD he doesn’t really have any friends to do things with. He’s done two weeks of sports camp this summer holiday but has moaned 24/7 the rest of the time.
He is extremely negative about everyone else and constantly putting his sibling down. He’s just really hard. I’d say he’s always been harder because of the ASD but I’m finding this the hardest part so far. He seems so angry. He told me this evening he will never forgive me for having his sibling and that it has ruined his life. He says he hates them and he’d be happy if they died.
His sister - aged 6 - loves him. She’s actually very easy going and I think he find that difficult too because the social part comes easily to her. She’s not as bright as him but she hasn’t got the side dose of finding life tricky that he does. She doesn’t antagonise him or anything, she’s just her.
He’s so unkind to her though.
I’ve tried explaining to him that she is 6 and he is 12 and that’s why there are different expectations. For example he kicked off tonight because we played a game and I was giving her slightly longer to think of the answers. Because she is only just 6. But he doesn’t see it that way, he said she was cheating, then he lost his temper, threw the whole thing in the air and stormed off.
There’s no allowance made by him for the fact she is so much younger.
When she does writing I will praise her and he will say ‘she can’t even spell’ or ‘your handwriting is rubbish, I don’t know why you’re pleased with that.’
I praise him as much as I can and I honestly feel like I am EXTREMELY patient but I’m worried about the impact on dd. It’s quite nasty some of the time and I cannot leave them alone together even for a minute.
It does make me dislike ds at times but I know if he were happier he wouldn’t do it. I’ve tried spending time with him 1:1, doing a game or activity every evening when she is in bed, trying to involve him with her, talking to him about it, removing electronics for being unkind, social stories etc but NOTHING makes any difference. This summer holidays has been fairly unbearable and I cannot wait for him to go back to school which makes me feel like a terrible parent. Had he been an only one, he’d have been great. He’s just so jealous.

I was your daughter in this situation and I'd suggest keep them apart as much as possible and carve out 1:1 time with them separately. It's also important that she sees you pulling him up on any mean comments - she has to know that you have her back and won't tolerate her being treated badly.

I'm sure others will have advice about how to improve things for your son, but that's my take from her POV.

Yes, she is little and it’s bullying really.
My son is so defensive and reacts badly when pulled up. If anything he then does it more.

He’s hard to like tbh.

Try ‘siblings without rivalry’ book for some tips on reducing the rivalry. I found it really helpful. My kids are younger but I think a lot of the tips would still apply. Hope you find a solution. It sounds very hard to have all that going on every day

Are you me? It has got so bad I hate taking them out. The older one is horrid to
The younger one and generally constantly moody. It is always a problem but during school term they are obviously occupied at school and with own friends. In the holidays they are thrown together all the time. I have tried leaving older one at home for weekend breaks camping which she will sulk through or trying to bring one of her friends along (which hasn’t happened for lots of reasons). Currently on holiday and I keep wishing I hadn’t had children. I am a lone parent so one on one time is near impossible.

Following as DC1 with likely ASD is very similar with DC2 and I am finding it quite hard to deal with these holidays!

Its a horrible problem to have - and I'm not sure I have any answers for you.
I am the hated younger sibling of an extremely jealous older sister. She made my childhood absolute hell, I was terrified of her and I grew up with very low self esteem because of the constant put downs, insults and just all the hatred coming my way. Even today I feel I will never be much good for anything and I am a failure in life. And I'm 61 now - so the effects left permanent damage. (similar age gap she was 7 yrs older than me).

I don't mean to upset you - you are clearly aware of the possible damage to your DD - my Mother was not aware of the harm it was causing, and didn't defend me or protect me in any way. I am now no contact with my sister. From my own experience, you are right not to leave them alone.

I would make sure you keep praising your DD's efforts, always pick your DS up when he disparages her and make and let her know his remarks are wrong and unacceptable.

With regard to your son - obviously he finds social interaction difficult and is feeling very angry and jealous. He needs to understand that when you praise your DD, it doesn't mean you are 'not' praising him, and he gets praised for his achievements too.
How open would he be to 'teaching' his little sister how to do something. Maybe find a project they can do together, and say because she is younger she may need a little help with something and can he help her. Would it help him bond with her a bit?

Can you access any kind of therapy/counselling for him so he can learn ways of expressing his frustrations ?
Its a fine line obviously his behaviour is obviously unacceptable, but punishing him is going to make him resent his sister more. I'd err on the side of encouraging him when he is pleasant to her (or not actively unpleasant).

I don;t know - I'm waffling a bit I think, but I feel for you - as an adult I look back and feel sorry for my mother, but also angry at her. At least your DD knows you will defend her and you have her back, I think that is very important.

I really feel for you OP. I have no advice as both of my boys are Autistic and on a different orbit generally, but I can imagine that’s really awful to cope with.

Would it help if you told him his feelings were acceptable, it’s his behaviour that is out of order?

With my older boy who is 8 (with HFA) I concentrate on actual behaviour and that has helped a little so maybe something like ‘you don’t have to like her, you don’t have to play with her, but we are a family and you will behave correctly or there will be consequences’ - would that work for him?

I feel awful for them both and for you as well. Rarely do threads really get to me but this one did.

Ds1 can be a little like this with ds2. He’s a lovely lad in every other way, but has this way of sniping at ds2 in a way that cuts at his self esteem. They’re wonderful separately, great to hang out with individually, but not together. Ds1 doesn’t have an ASD diagnosis, but is very rigid in his thinking. I don’t have any real advice, but I just wanted to say that you’re not alone in struggling with this
FWIW, now that Ds1 has moved out for uni, and they have more space from each other, they get on better in small doses.

I had this with Ds1, also ASD and his two younger siblings but with a much smaller age gap. He constantly told me he should have been an only child, It is really hard, the only encouragement I can give you is that now they are older (all in their 20s) they get on really well and are best mates.

I think I would tell him he is NOT allowed to comment on his sister in any way AT ALL

For each day he manages he gets something of value to him maybe even a later bedtime what ever suits.

If anyone else treated your daughter like that, you would not allow it. Just because he has a diagnosis, the end result is still hurtful and abusive and it is not fair in her having to put up with that.

Keep them separate.

Write rules on a huge chart ‘no hitting or hurting’ ‘no criticism of art work’ etc. and do not let him treat her like that. Be really clear with what is allowed and if he can follow the school rules, he will be able to follow house rules but you will need to write them out clearly and stick them up on the wall.

It won’t always be this way, and if it is any consolation, a psychologist told me that siblings of children with additional needs often develop huge empathy and can go into caring roles when they grow up, like nurses and occupational therapists etc.

There are parenting courses with NAS (I think they are called Earlybird but will need to check that) and they will be able to help you with this, they also sometimes run courses for siblings of children with ASD because of exactly what you are describing. Often the child with ASD gets loads of assistance and courses and help and the siblings are forgotten about.

If it helps you could draw a ven diagram with a circle for each of you and write all the things you like into them. Then where they intersect you might find one or two things that they both like, like a game of cards or snap or just one quick thing they could do together and take turns and it end without an explosion and build on that. It might just be 5 minutes where they get on but it is something. Then end it on a positive note.

It is so so hard on you, I’m sorry and I hope things get easier soon.

I am the older, incredibly jealous sibling. I wish more than anything that my parents had known to get me mental health help when the problems first became noticeable.

I have EUPD and there's a suspicion of autistic tendencies.

Have you had the sort of chat with him where you explain that it's totally OK to not like people in life, that that must be so tough for him if he feels like that about someone he has to live with, BUT like or no like, there are no excuses for treating people badly, ever.

I would make it clear that you will be available for him to express his frustration to whenever he needs it, especially if that means holding his tongue to his sister and coming to you instead. Don't shame his feelings on the matter as that will drive it deeper inside him. Encourage him when you can see he is angry but chose to take himself away or not say something mean. And have a very clear and rigid consequence system for when he (or she) says or does something that oversteps the mark, possibly even one that you have designed with the kids in a rare moment of calm.

You're in a difficult position where you have to provide him with support to navigate some very complicated emotions, whilst also prioritising your daughters safety from bullying.

I am in a similar situation with my eldest son (ASD) and my daughter. Son is now 15 and a bit better than he used to be towards his sister, in that he tries to avoid her. Telling him he isn't allowed to comment really has never worked. He could have all the punishments possible and all the rewards possible and he still can't control his intense irritation. I was trying to get some help once from a mental health nurse, saying we couldn't all go in the car together due to the upset between them. She said that is ridiculous and I just needed to explain to them that we all needed to go out and that they needed to be calm together. As if I hadn't tried that a thousand times! And punishments, and rewards! The only answer for a while was to not have my son and daughter in the car together. We would go out in two cars. Maybe it's an ASD related thing.

It's really really hard to balance, but protect your daughter. I was her and as I got older my brother turned from saying nasty things to violence. My parents just sort of let it happen. As adults we only saw each other a handful of times and now haven't spoken for about 8 years.

Hopefully your son will grow out of it, but watch him like hawk. It sounds like he is pushing the boundaries and trying to get attention by behaving like this. Can you up the positive attention you give him? Love bomb him a bit to see if it makes him feel more secure?

Reading this thread is a window into my life!

DS1- ASD 18yrs. DS2 - 14yrs and desperate for his brothers attention... so he annoys him.

Just makes home life so miserable.

DS2 has been at his Dad's the past 3 weeks and it has been so peaceful.

Both boys are great individually and l enjoy their company.... but together it's awful

Hmm in his eyes your are favouring your dd do you sit with him and praise his work? Yes she is younger but maybe give them both the same treatment when playing games, his anger and resentment comes from how you manage them both

He sounds very black and white.

If he got on well at the sports camp is there a sport you could get him into? Give him another focus.

I'm sorry, this sounds so tough .

Does he accept that his behaviour amounts to bullying? Your DD is so young and it must be terrible for her self-esteem to have to deal with a much older brother constantly belittling her.

I'd separate them as much as possible, spend as much 1-on-1 time with your DS as you can, but come down hard on the nasty comments and behaviour and make it clear they will lead to punishments. He doesn't have to like her but he has to be civil to her.

This really resonates. Ds and dd are close in age and do a lot together. There are times they got on well but it can also be horrendous.
He can be unreasonably controlling and critical, but from his POV she is unreasonable and mean and he thinks that we always take her side.
If only it was as simple as protecting her and not standing for bad behaviour.

I’m very worried about her, particularly in relation to the lessons she’s learning about relationships and what kind of treatment she might feel she has to put up with. I’m hoping that talking, and listening and understanding that he’s working out of a very different perspective will help and she won’t internalise it all.

But I’m also worried about him. It’s vital that he learns to respect boundaries but recognising them is still a difficulty. His needs aren’t being met, and he’s struggling with self esteem and self worth. Often when there’s a problem between them, it takes a while to unpick his perspective which, might not be obvious to me, but is valid too. And more often, I get triggered and react angrily and make the whole sorry mess worse.

They both have told me they would have preferred being only children. If I could only split myself in two

I agree with separating as much as possible. can you have a daily timetable, where one child gets 2hrs of computer gaming (or similar) while the other gets 2hrs of mum-time and then swap.

also, talk to your DS about what is fair and how to make things fair. people with autism can be v concerned about making things fair, but he might not be good at calculating what is fair in any situation. concepts of making sports fair by adding weight to the saddle in a horse race or similar might be useful.

I'm going to follow along as this has started in my house too and I'm despairing at it. Sorry I've no advice OP just solidarity. I too find my eldest DD hard to like when she's being cruel and dismissive to her sister. I then feel awful for thinking it. She's so harsh though and my youngest is a sweet little delight who loves her older sister and constantly comprises to keep the peace and I fear this is going to have repercussions long term, in that she will continue kowtowing to bullies. I hope you get some reprieve - it's really tough

@3luckystars

It won’t always be this way, and if it is any consolation, a psychologist told me that siblings of children with additional needs often develop huge empathy and can go into caring roles when they grow up, like nurses and occupational therapists etc

Hmm. Not my experience whatsoever, and any pressure of expectation on the NT sibling to act this way does a lot of harm. My two are adults now and have next to nothing to do with one another. Just because you are siblings doesn't mean you are friends.

Maybe she was just saying that to make me feel better.