Am I being unreasonable for wanting to tell you about being Caucasian?

[DelphineMarineaux]

Inspired by another thread I just responded to, I thought I would start this one.

So, do you think I'm being unreasonable for wanting to tell you about what it means to be Caucasian?

The reason I want to tell you about it is because when most people hear the term 'Caucasian' their thoughts most often go to a dark place. White supremacy. Racism. But reality is, Caucasians are not "white". "White" being someone of, say, Germanic, Scandinavian or Anglo-Saxon heritage. For those that might know this, there is a rather large region in Central Asia called the Caucasus. It consists of countries like Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, but also lots of regions in what we know as Russia. People that originate from the Caucasus - such as myself - we are called Caucasians. The reason why I want to tell people about the Caucasus and Caucasian people is because I feel like our name is being misused so much, and almost always in negative contexts. I shouldn't have to be worried about offending someone by telling them I'm Caucasian. Just because, in their mind, a Caucasian must be a white supremacist.

I really hope that even one person might read this thread might think twice about their reaction next time they meet someone that tells them they are Caucasian. Because some of us genuinely are Caucasians, and very proud of our ancient heritage, our culture and our history. We do not want to be associated with racism, superiority of any kind, or anything else that's negative and so far away from us / who we are.

Thank you for reading...

@dreamingbohemian

I know quite a few people from the Caucasus and I've never heard any of them call themselves Caucasian.

They say I'm Georgian, Armenian, Chechen, etc.

Caucasian is not very specific, why wouldn't you just say where you're from? Especially because the word does have a twisted meaning here.

What a stupid response. Why do people call themselves European?

Also to those who keep saying they haven't heard of people linking white supremacy and Caucasian, you probably don't spent a lot of time on the internet. Because it's rampant.

Google "caucacity" which is a mix of the words "Caucasian" and "audacity".

OP as someone of Eastern European heritage whose features are in no way "white" (nose, lips, hair) I totally get you.

@znaika : I'm Arab, North African & white, entirely dependent on the country. Me, I'm just from a country in the Maghreb.

I, too, have never heard Caucasian used in connection with white supremacists. I wrote my dissertation on far right racists so I don't think that one would have passed me by!

Always thought of Caucasian as a slightly odd (given the link to the Caucasus) but ultimately neutral term for a white person.

Some Spanish are more dark than me, yet no questioning of race.

@SaharaFlower it's strange. Many people have very fixed ideas about what people should look like depending on where they're from.

Many people are baffled that you can be russian and asian at the same time and i always want to shout have you never seen a fucking map?

Sadly I think it's a US thing- not all but very much sm driven. They do like to categorize. When you look up a UK actor in wiki it will always say something like a quarter Irish and an eighth Scottish and other such shit. No UK person defines themselves like this ime. They just say im welsh from Cardiff or whatever even if they have south asian ancestry.

@znaika : It's crazy when they categorise. Also, it's common, because there is African American, Asian American and such, but they are just American; skin tone isn't nationality.

"Yes, I am English, a quarter Irish, a quarter Nigerian, a quarter Latvian, a sixteenth Mongolian"

I have that DNA profile though, where it reveals heritage. It makes race related to nationality seem more crazy. Over 60% Sephardic.

@NotMyCat : Would that exclude being white? Where is it that mixed race ends? I have 3c/4a hair yet light skin. Was his hairstyle short?

It's a North American thing to use Caucasian as a euphemism for pale-ish white (as opposed to latino). In the same vein as using African-American for black and then not having a clue what to say for a black person who isn't American. And yes, it is associated with white supremacy in a US context, as is the term Anglo-Saxon. But Mumsnet is a mainly UK-based site, so it seems like an odd audience to choose to make this post. Regardless of the level of knowledge of the Caucasus region that UK people have, they would be unlikely to think of the word Caucasian as a synonym for white.

As an aside, I was listening to interrviews with black Tunisians the other day and was interested to hear that they call the Tunisian racial majority (North African, predominantly Berber heritage mixed with Arab and Turkic peoples) white. It's all just a matter of perspective.

Caucasian to mean White is rooted in the same scientific racism that spawned its equivalent terms like Negroid or Mongoloid. That's where the original link with White supremacy comes from, and sadly some groups still use this type of language today.

There used to be a belief that each race originated in a different place (often also from a different Biblical person, scientific racism often has Biblical links), with Caucasians having originated in the Caucasus mountains. This is now well-proven to be bullshit, but this term still lingers, particularly in the US even though it ignores actual people of the Caucasus.

I don’t mind you talking about your heritage and culture as a Caucasian (white) person.

Most people who live in the Caucasus mountains aren't White. I think that's the OP's point and why a lot of people would like the term to fall out of use to mean White where it's sticking around. It kinda whitewashes - for lack of a better term - that the area is very diverse with dozens upon dozens of groups.

@BiBabbles i think it would be news to the average Georgian or Ossetian etc that they aren't white. Have you ever been there? Many people have dark hair and eyes. It's like saying Italians ir Greeks aren't white.

@fink : The Maghreb people don't often realise the amount of racial diversity. There is a lot of DNA mixed with subsaharan African and the Jew diaspora (Sephardic). My dad was racist and seen himself as Arab, yet very little Arab DNA, actually more SSA and Sephardic, as well as N African Amazigh. Lots of Arabs and Berber (amazigh) have slight afro hair, about 4a. This would exclude the Gottingen racial theory.

Just to add that we were taught, in school in the UK in the mid-90s, that Caucasian was the correct terminology for a white person. It's not solely a North American error.

But I still think it's sad that I should have to 'hide' or not speak of being Caucasian...

Why are you saying that you would have to hide OP? Who would you be hiding from? Also, do you think Germans or Scandinavians (who you have mentioned) should have to go into hiding too? I don't understand

But I'll definitely keep your suggestion in mind for when I travel to the US and if people there ask me what I am =D I'll just say I'm from Caucasus instead of saying I'm Caucasian

Why have you decided to post this on a UK site OP?

If you are trying to brush up your terminology for when you travel to the US, why don't you post on an American site? The answers you will get will be more relevant. The US and the UK are two different countries, and you say you are not living here either.

Well I know people are trying to say you shouldn't be posting but I remember having to choose Caucasian on forms not that many years back.

Very interesting thread thank you for posting

Thank you op. I never knew this, every day is a school day 📚

@Rumplestrumpet

Caucasian is usually used as an American term to mean white person of any heritage, I've only ever heard it in TV and movies. You're correct that it's original meaning is referring to people of the Caucasus, but I think due to growing presence of American culture it's not used for that much any more in every day parlance.

That's said, I have never heard it associated with white supremacists.

Exactly as I've always understood it.

The only time I've heard it used is in American cop programmes where it seems to be used as a catch all descriptive word for any white person.

I've never heard it used in that way in the UK.

And I've also never heard it used in connection with white supremacists anywhere.

Good thread. Don’t stop saying you’re Caucasian, OP, you don’t owe the people who don’t know what it means anything. It’s where you’re from and your identity. Totally get that nationality and ethnicity don’t always match, as znaika also says.

I’ve always been confused about how “Caucasian” (which I too take to mean from that region) has made it onto official forms meaning “white”. Thanks to a PP for the explanation. I will raise it next time I see “Caucasian” on a form/in formal language as shorthand for white. I feel like I’ve seen this fairly recently, sadly.

@54321nought

I am also very confused when I hear people use the term "Caucasian" to mean northern Europeans - we are not Caucasians!

But the phrase "Anglo-Saxon" is a bit weird too, the "Anglo -Saxons" were retired soldiers who had turned mercenary after serving 25 years in the Roman army, they were not in any way ethnically homogenous, many of them were North African, Mediterranean, etc

I don't know where you've got that from but ... no.

Thank you enlightening me to the real definition of the term. I understand your frustration it always annoys me when the racial profiling on forms and applications has "white" and then a multitude of "black and asian ethnic headings" as white and black are neither ethnicities or races.
If there is any useful imfomation to be gained from filling in these boxes then more ethnic mixes and regions should be added.

@DeathByWalkies

I, too, have never heard Caucasian used in connection with white supremacists. I wrote my dissertation on far right racists so I don't think that one would have passed me by!

Always thought of Caucasian as a slightly odd (given the link to the Caucasus) but ultimately neutral term for a white person.

How the heck did that pass you by?! That is pretty bad, you know.

As someone with Armenian ancestry, I admit, I clicked on this thread to see where the topic was going to lead

Fair enough, carry on!

(Though I have to agree, most people from that area tend to specify rather than generalise as being ‘Caucasian’. At least when speaking English to people not from that region)

@54321nought

No, they were not.

Thanks @DelphineMarineaux - I have heard this used and actually thought it seemed odd; am ashamed to say I didn't know it's true origin. It was used by real life police on their radio when I took my friend to the police station to report her mugging back in the early 90s. 'Looking for two Caucasian males, approx 5'9".. etc'. They clearly meant white (which was the description we gave them when asked). After that, like others, I heard it on police TV shows so am afraid I associate it more with criminal activity than white supremacy!