Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This jury are on glue [Content warning added by MNHQ: child abuse]

120 replies

whatsthataboutthen · 06/08/2021 23:21

How, just how, can this jury decide that this couple didn't murder the child, but "only" guilty of manslaughter?

The mother had threatened to kill her in a text a few days previously, and the child was found with multiple broken ribs and sternum and other fractures from previous abuse, but the jury decided her death wasn't murder? What the actual fuck? Whoever the defence lawyer was really stitched up the jury, or they were on glue...how can any sane person say this wasn't premeditated?

news.sky.com/story/amp/kaylee-jade-priest-mother-and-ex-boyfriend-jailed-for-killing-girl-three-after-her-cries-interrupted-them-having-sex-12374662

OP posts:
Terhou · 07/08/2021 12:45

Yeah I'll live with you thinking I'm no better than them if it means some "Mother" -who saved a £1000 sum from her benefits to buy her current boyfriend a BMW (wjich he failed to insure) while her own daughter had bare floors no curtains and no light - gets some form of punishment meted out by her prison co-inmates
I'll rest easy

The punishment we as a society have decided is appropriate is deprivation of liberty. Fortunately we are civilised enough not to use physical punishments.

Yes, it's so easy to sit smugly behind your keyboard proclaiming that you're happy to let violent thugs beat up people you happen to disapprove of. But what happens when, for instance, the person you and they disapprove of is actually innocent, or the victim of mistaken identification on their part? What if it's you or someone you love in that position? Something tells me you'd be screaming for retribution and complaining about inadequate prison supervision. And it's not good enough to say "But these two are indisputably guilty" because, take it from me, violent thugs in prison don't make that distinction.

Terhou · 07/08/2021 12:47

So it does require a degree of premeditation

No, because you can form the intention to kill at the moment you pick up the knife, hit someone, or whatever, and that will be sufficient mens rea for murder.

EvilPea · 07/08/2021 13:05

Murder is incredibly hard to convict on, technicality’s are hard on this one and emotions run (rightly) high.

BadLad · 07/08/2021 13:12

The mens rea of murder is malice aforethought, which has been interpreted by the courts as meaning intention to kill.

So it does require a degree of premeditation

Or intention to cause GBH (in England, certainly).

Attempted murder requires intention to kill, and is therefore much harder to prove.

Spidey66 · 07/08/2021 13:18

@Houseofvelour

I've been completely heartbroken over this little girl's story and the story of the baby abandoned for 6 days. It's absolutely devastating and I can't stop crying about it. I'm giving my children twice the amount of hugs atm.

The main thing that bothers me is that the girl that abandoned her child for six days has been sentenced to 9 years in prison where has the couple that literally beat that poor baby to death are only getting 3 years, of which they'll likely only do 2!?!?
THEY SHOULD ALL SPEND THE REST OF THEIR NATURAL BORN LIVES ROTTING IN JAIL CELLS!
I hope they rot in hell for eternity when they leave this life.

They're not doing 3 years. The mum's got 15 and her boyfriend 14....
chaosrabbitland · 07/08/2021 13:39

@Terhou

murder has to be shown to be actually preplanned , in this case yes a suggestion was made , but that was all it was , it cant be proved that a solid plan was put into place to do it

That isn't actually correct. What is required for murder is an intention to kill or cause serious harm, but that intention can be formed on a spur of the moment basis. The issue here is that there is reasonable doubt in both cases.

yes , thank you , i was trying to form what i know , but im not an expert in all the technicalites of it , so didnt know really how to phrase it properly like you have , but yes your right , there was reasonable doubt at least they got some time . personally i think juries should be done away with and a panel of judges hear cases and also decide the sentances . its always struck me as bloody ridiculous that 12 people with no clue about the law are pulled in for service , many times reluctantly , as it means disruption from their jobs , many dont want to to it , but its hard to get out of , and these are the people that are sitting through hours of evidence , some of which might be going past them and when it comes to murder trials this is where it all falls flat i believe , the poor sods are in a positon where they no doubt believe the defendant is guilty , but because of the old reasonable doubt thing they aquit , which in the states if theres a death sentance on the table they naturally will do .

i dated a police officer years ago in my 20s . it was only casually ,he used to talk about his job alot and one of the things he said was that criminals will often pick a jury trial as theres less chance of a guilty verdict . dont know if this is true or not . but it is what i remember him telling me .

midsomermurderess · 07/08/2021 13:39

Acting deliberately, with intent, to kill, or to show utter disregard for the life of your victim, is what constitutes murder. There is no requirement for premeditation, no requirement for 'malice aforethought'.
It's daft and pointless for people with no knowledge, not just of their own criminal justice system, but of the specific crime of murder, to be chuntering away on like this thread, pontificating about the role of juries etc. What are you getting out of it?

midsomermurderess · 07/08/2021 13:45

And there is no 'maximum' sentence for murder. There is one, mandatory, sentence for murder, life imprisonment. When sentenced, the judge will state the maximum term you just serve before becoming eligible to apply for parole. If paroled, you remain on licence, for ever, and can be recalled to prison if you break the terms of your licence.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 07/08/2021 13:48

@midsomermurderess

And there is no 'maximum' sentence for murder. There is one, mandatory, sentence for murder, life imprisonment. When sentenced, the judge will state the maximum term you just serve before becoming eligible to apply for parole. If paroled, you remain on licence, for ever, and can be recalled to prison if you break the terms of your licence.
Yup. And VERY few whole life orders.

Uk was pulled up on no minimum due to human rights a while ago because they weren't giving oarole possibilities IIRC

chaosrabbitland · 07/08/2021 13:51

@midsomermurderess

Acting deliberately, with intent, to kill, or to show utter disregard for the life of your victim, is what constitutes murder. There is no requirement for premeditation, no requirement for 'malice aforethought'. It's daft and pointless for people with no knowledge, not just of their own criminal justice system, but of the specific crime of murder, to be chuntering away on like this thread, pontificating about the role of juries etc. What are you getting out of it?
well to be fair, i think everyones just replying to the op who seems to be questioning the jurys verdict , i will hold my hands up and admit my lack of knowledge in the area of not only our own justice system , but murder as well . i guess everyones just having their say like on all theads they do , personally as i said above i question the whole role of juries though
SchrodingersImmigrant · 07/08/2021 13:59

The point of jury is that you are judged by your own peers.

Tbf after being on MN and especially seeing threads like this, the idea makes me worry too...Hmm

lllllllllll · 07/08/2021 14:05

And there is no 'maximum' sentence for murder. There is one, mandatory, sentence for murder, life imprisonment. When sentenced, the judge will state the maximum term you just serve before becoming eligible to apply for parole. If paroled, you remain on licence, for ever, and can be recalled to prison if you break the terms of your licence.

I’m sure you’re right technically, but I think when people say “maximum sentence”, they mean someone imprisoned for the rest of their lives and never let out. As opposed to someone given parole after 10 years (for example). It’s far preferable being out in the real world and on licence to being locked up in jail.

Iusedtobesoooomuchfun · 07/08/2021 14:08

I think the woman who left her daughter for days to go and party would have been mentally unwell and lack intelligence.

Because anyone who understands basic biology and is sane of mind kows not to leave babies home alone.

ChocBeforeCock · 07/08/2021 14:16

@ineedaholidaynow

Were they charged with murder in this case?
Yes.

And in any case where murder is charged, manslaughter may be returned as an alternative verdict, there’s a statutory provision to this effect.

Lolalovesroses · 07/08/2021 15:35

I haven't read any of these stories as they'd haunt me. The jurors should be commended for sitting through that trial. It must have taken a great deal of emotional strength and will affect them for life.

SunshineCake · 07/08/2021 15:52

@Terhou

It’s because they don’t know which one of them did it. They don’t have evidence either way of who did it and neither have admitted it.

Should both be murder then

It really can't work like that. There are some cases like this where one party is genuinely innocent and the other is simply a very determined liar. It would be grossly unjust for the innocent party to be found guilty of murder.

Yes, having read more I see the flaws in my emotional response. Thank you for your explanation without attack.
AbsolutelyPatsy · 07/08/2021 15:57

@Lolalovesroses

I haven't read any of these stories as they'd haunt me. The jurors should be commended for sitting through that trial. It must have taken a great deal of emotional strength and will affect them for life.
yes, i hope they got the chance to off load somehow
Panickingpavlova · 07/08/2021 16:02

It's been mooted on another thread about voluntary castration and sterilisation, if these two get out before their child bearing years are up

Either intense constant monitoring or sterilisation to avoid that and no contact with children allowed.

Eg they can't become a step mum to someone else's dc

Described as low intelligence, what processes did she go through when talking about keeping the child? What monitoring was in place?
I wonder what her past history was, was she a bully? Bullied?
Someone with a personality that extreme, who is capable of writing those texts I'm just surprised it's not come out before that she's not mother material.

Garfunkle · 07/08/2021 19:53

Were they charged with murder in this case

Yes. In his summing up Andrew Smith QC for prosecution invited the jury to find the defendants guilty of murder…

This jury are on glue [Content warning added by MNHQ: child abuse]
Terhou · 07/08/2021 23:38

i dated a police officer years ago in my 20s . it was only casually ,he used to talk about his job alot and one of the things he said was that criminals will often pick a jury trial as theres less chance of a guilty verdict .

That's a police officer's reaction. It would be equally valid to say that innocent people will often pick a jury trial on the basis that it's a fairer trial.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread