Schools aren't feeding children enough

[Squashpocket]

DS (5 years) has always come home from school ravenous. We have had to give him a 2 course breakfast and full meal sized 'snack' after school to get him through to dinner time. Then sometimes supper before bed as well.

I just thought 'oh well, he's busy at school', but now I'm wondering exactly how small are the portions of food at school?!?

I have sent him off to a (very active, sports based) holiday club this week with a normal packed lunch (popcorn and fruit for snack, sandwich, yoghurt, fruit, veg sticks, breadsticks and hummus and a cereal bar for lunch) and he has come home full and able to wait for his dinner. Breakfast this morning has just been a bowl of fruit and Greek yoghurt and he's fine.

So, AIBU or is school obviously not providing enough food? I'm shocked because this is not how I (fondly) remember my school dinners at all! It was all massive portions of mashed potato and puddings with custard (those were the days...). Does anyone else find this?

I didn't say the kid did.

Just highlighting that focusing on weight is also unhelpful because that's not necessarily a sign someone is healthy or needs all the food they are getting.

Plus tbh tbe insistence that not having a biscuit or 2 is going to plunge the kid into being underweight is a bit OTT.

I think if it all hinges in a couple of rich teas that's actually quite precarious.

So he could well be a bit hungry but that doesn't mean he couldn't wait til dinner if that makes sense. Of course it's personal choice as ti whether people go fir 3 meals a day or smaller meals ajd snacks in between. Do what works.

But with 1 on 4 kids jeumg underweight by yr 6. It's not a bad idea to question things from time to time. The shift to a snacking culture has been something we as a nation are to reliant on

Another teacher here and I agree that the portion sizes are tiny! Teeny tiny

They didn’t feed us enough in primary school . Secondary school the food was great

I was a VERY early developer, wasn't just going through puberty at ten but had completed it and gotten the bloody t-shirt.

I was 5ft 7, about ten stone, a B cup, had periods, body hair the lot and my portion size was the same size as the kids in reception. Lunches were tiny, I used to be ravenous and seconds weren't an option.

We used to have sausage and mash which would be 1 1/2 chipolatas, two ice cream scoops of mash and a ladle of peas.

Or jacket potatoes - half a jacket, a scoop of beans OR cheese and a handful of carrot sticks.

School dinners round where I live have always and continue to be abysmal. Stick him on packed lunches if it's not working.

My Mum used to have to collect me with jam sandwiches and crisps because depending how physical I'd been I would be faint. I eventually went on packed lunches.

Only bored on the days he has school dinners? Not on the days he has a packed lunch?

@Neverrains my DD only eats school dinners, she doesn't take a packed lunch apart from when she goes on a trip. She gets bored on school holidays when theres nothing to do. After school she tends to play with her toys, but I bet they get boring after 3-4 weeks of the same things.

@RantyAunty

They might be more thirsty than hungry so maybe start with a glass of water when they get home.

It does take a while for the body to not feel hungry after eating.
Eating until full just leads to overeating.
If they eat what they have and wait 20 minutes or so, they might not even feel hungry anymore.

I'm shocked at all the constant snacking. It's like a person can't go an hour without having something in their mouth these days.

I just remember having 3 meals a day as a child. No snacks during weekdays.
There might have been 2 overweight kids in the entire school.
All this extra food is a learned habit.

Those three meals a day were clearly enough to satisfy you though, they clearly don't fill other kids.

I have a huge appetite, my sister doesn't. Everyone needs different amounts there's no right or wrong. I need snacks in morning and afternoon otherwise I start to get migraines. It's not greed or indulgence, it's just what my body needs.

There's no correct way to eat, there's a lot of stigmatisation around schedules and snacking. Some people are grazers, others aren't.

@Neverrains

So a quarter of a sandwich with the crusts cut off, a quarter of a child's yogurt, quarter of a teaspoon of hummus with a bit of fruit/veg stick/quarter of a child's size cereal bar? Are you sure you are eating enough for an adult

There are many competitive under eaters on MN threads!

Sounds like it. Do you think this one wins the prize or does anyone eat less than that. I wonder what the calories would be?

You don't have to be overweight to be unhealthy.

But the OP’s DS isn’t unhealthy. He sounds like he’s very healthy, very active with a big appetite, and enjoys his food. It really doesn’t sound as if the OP needs to be lectured about the dangers of obesity. (Obviously that can change as the child grows up and becomes less active.)

I only wish I had that problem tbh. My DDs (12 and 9) are both healthy and not overweight, but DD1 in particular is an incredibly fussy eater. (DD2 is also fussy but not nearly so bad.)

I have previously worked in primary school catering management but I am now in secondary. There is a lol of guidance to follow and they are specific in amounts for age groups and frequency of the food groups.

The guidelines are mandatory for maintained schools and compliance is expected in free schools and academies.

The guidance can be found in this document
www.schoolfoodplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/School-Food-Standards-Guidance-FINAL-V3.pdf

Page 6 onwards gives expected portion sizes.

I do feel though that the portion sizes should have more flexibility with age as a 5 year old and 10 year old vary massively so with secondary I give the same portion sizes to my year 7s as I do to the year 13s. Thankfully as I am working in an academy I have a little flexibility and creative license that is entrusted to me by SLT.

Part of the problem I find is training and skills. I think that the school catering role is still not looked on as being a well respected profession and targeted training is limited.
Funding for training both practical skills and management/leadership and budgeting skills would in my opinion be the best way to ensure the quality of food remains good and that the right people are recruited and retained.

I have always worked in house so cannot comment on outsourced catering.

But the OP’s DS isn’t unhealthy. He sounds like he’s very healthy, very active with a big appetite, and enjoys his food. It really doesn’t sound as if the OP needs to be lectured about the dangers of obesity. (Obviously that can change as the child grows up and becomes less active.)

I didn't say the ops chikd was unhealthy

I was responding to the poster who says that eating alot isn't a problem if they aren't overweight. I was making them Awre that actually you can still have all the problems of being over weight , like fat around the organs , and still be skinny. And that it's best not to be lulled into a false sense if security that they are burning it off or consuming only what they need. Same way that overweight people can still suffer malnutrition.

I'm.sure the ops child is fine

Sounds like it. Do you think this one wins the prize or does anyone eat less than that. I wonder what the calories would be?

Someone on another currently running thread said they'd find a toddlers meal that had been served on, but didn't fill, a baby weaning plate 'a challenge'. It consisted of some very thinly chopped pieces of avocado , a small boiled egg, a teaspoon of sweet corn, one cherry tomato, thin slice and a half of cucumber 2 tiny carrot batons, small slice of cheese and a couple of morsels torn from the inside of a slice of bread. Another poster was disgusted it had been 'drenched' in mayonnaise. (There was a small squirt). I think there's some competition for said medal

I think your packed lunch sounds fine op. Pretty much like the lunches I see the children I teach eat. In the country I live there is a culture of stopping to eat mid morning. So actually my children eat more. Some of them bring separate morning tea boxes! There seems to be a fair amount of hand wringing about western countries and portion control. Pre COVID I worked intermittently in rural schools in a developing country for an ngo. The children would arrive for the day barefoot in their little uniforms from very very basic homes. Lunchtime rolls around and they all pull out full-size lunchboxes full of rice and either veg curry or Dahl. After which they were allowed to go and pick whatever fruit they could find in the trees around the school. Once or twice a week the teachers would provide a treat. Either biscuits or a tin cup of cold Fanta kept in a bucket of ice in the corner of the classroom. I was always amazed at how much these little kids could eat. For a while I thought that it was perhaps their main meal until I was invited into homes. But no, soup for breakfast and more Dahl and rice for dinner, sometimes with a bit of goat on the side. My point is that these tiny children ate large portions and I can safely say that I never saw a single child carrying any excess weight. Which makes me think that it's not about how much.

"Is that just the main bit, or does it include the cake and custard etc that they’re given for pudding?"

All components, so both courses, must represent a third of a child's recommended daily intake. Obviously, this is a general assumption and won't be able to account for children who are particularly big, active or hungry.

What's struck me on here is that some people are cross that overstretched midday staff haven't spent time encouraging their child to eat more of their lunch. They can't - they're too busy. Instead, to encourage children to eat their food, some schools have introduced something like the 'clean plate award' mentioned, and heavily criticised, earlier. It's a difficult balance I guess - encouraging children to eat without inadvertently encouraging unhealthy eating habits.

Really, if you don't like the school meals, you do have another option - send a packed lunch instead.

One other thing I'd say - there's really nothing wrong with a child coming out of school feeling a bit hungry and ready for a snack. Pleasantly hungry is exactly how someone should feel several hours after eating and ready for their next meal.

If he’s a healthy weight, it’s obviously the size of lunch he needs to maintain his healthy weight

yes, but "it" is what he normally has for lunch, i.e. the school dinners, NOT the enormous packed lunch he's just started having for holiday club. (Indeed, they can't both be the right size of lunch!)
The enormous packed lunch is probably too much and if he ate like that every day he would probably not maintain a healthy weight. And it's not as if the kid is on the verge of starving -- even just on school dinners he's above average weight, OP said.

@suspiria777

If he’s a healthy weight, it’s obviously the size of lunch he needs to maintain his healthy weight

yes, but "it" is what he normally has for lunch, i.e. the school dinners, NOT the enormous packed lunch he's just started having for holiday club. (Indeed, they can't both be the right size of lunch!)
The enormous packed lunch is probably too much and if he ate like that every day he would probably not maintain a healthy weight. And it's not as if the kid is on the verge of starving -- even just on school dinners he's above average weight, OP said.

His lunches are not enormous.

@Spanielstail

Well no, as he's not fat (75th centile for weight and height, always has been since birth) he's obviously burning all of these calories. I haven't trained him to eat loads and then magically hide the calories somewhere hmm

You do know that overfed children grow taller, not just chubbier?

Overfed children are tall? Surely they are him just fatter? I’m off for a google.

@suspiria777

If he’s a healthy weight, it’s obviously the size of lunch he needs to maintain his healthy weight

yes, but "it" is what he normally has for lunch, i.e. the school dinners, NOT the enormous packed lunch he's just started having for holiday club. (Indeed, they can't both be the right size of lunch!)
The enormous packed lunch is probably too much and if he ate like that every day he would probably not maintain a healthy weight. And it's not as if the kid is on the verge of starving -- even just on school dinners he's above average weight, OP said.

His lunch isn't enormous. He has lots of things but they sound like small amounts.

@suspiria777

If he’s a healthy weight, it’s obviously the size of lunch he needs to maintain his healthy weight

yes, but "it" is what he normally has for lunch, i.e. the school dinners, NOT the enormous packed lunch he's just started having for holiday club. (Indeed, they can't both be the right size of lunch!)
The enormous packed lunch is probably too much and if he ate like that every day he would probably not maintain a healthy weight. And it's not as if the kid is on the verge of starving -- even just on school dinners he's above average weight, OP said.

They can't all be bang on average. I think if height and weight are round the same centile he is in proportion. I had one who was on the 90th centile for height and weight. He was slim, you could count his ribs from the other end of the room.

I'm guessing he can't go up for seconds? I teach abroad - the way we work it in our school is they get a small to medium sized plate to start with and then can go up for more, no problem (or for tiny kids, staff are roving about with extra to offer). Seems to work well.

I've just asked him and apparently no seconds available.

He's back from his sports club now and, again, hasn't come home ravenous. Honestly the difference is astounding. He's so much happier and more settled.

I didn't want to send him a packed lunch to school for cost and convenience reasons, but I'm starting to think he needs it. Tbh with the extra breakfast, after school 'snack' etc. it probably wouldn't add up to that much extra food to buy and prep.

On the basis we have a childhood obesity crisis I think schools are probably feeding children enough.

I find this interesting as my kids are all slim but very healthy and very active. They could not eat for lunch what you give. I would pack them a sandwich (one slice of bread with cheese and/or houmous), a piece of fruit, a yogurt and one other thing (breadsticks/scone/raisins etc).

Overfed children are tall? Surely they are him just fatter? I’m off for a google.

This is true. Overweight children are often also taller. They then hit puberty earlier (linked to their higher weight) and stop growing, so don't always transition into taller adults, just fatter ones.

If you look at height/weight ratio charts, a child who is "proportionate" at high centiles (eg 90th for height and weight) is often an above average centile in terms of bmi or height/ratio. You dont actually need to be as proportionately bigger at a taller height because things like your head dont change much. A child who is 90th for both height and weight may still be overweight. My son is slim but not bone thin, he is 90th for height and 70th for weight. He would look chubby if he was 90th for weight.

For comparison, my son (same age and a big appetite!) Would have a sandwich, small yoghurt, fruit & salad. No breadsticks and hummus or cereal bar. He would eat that much if I would let him, but he puts on too much weight when I do. He is always hungry before a meal, you are supposed to be! Children spend most of their time saying they are hungry in my experience and its often boredom.

Ps if you are really concerned, go to the school and ask to see what is being served.

The only thing I would say is some schools vary the portion sizes by age. Maybe what's offered in reception at your child's school is more geared to the many picky 5 year olds who have more average appetites.