To be concerned about DD3

[nocoffeenobooze]

DD3 (due to start reception in September) - have just come away from a meeting with her key worker at nursery, as there has been concerns about some of her behaviour.
DD has been hitting / scratching some of the other children in her nursery, in particular her best friend (whom I believed she adored).
Her key worker states that she does not respect others boundaries when playing and if other children want to play away from her or don't engage to her liking, she will hit or scratch them.
Specifically, this seems to be directed to her best friend (let's call him Oscar). Oscar doesn't assert himself as well as DD, and DD will then hurt him.
We have been having some issues with outbursts at home recently - not so much physical but huge impulsive tantrums and screaming, and DD has scratched her own face before when upset.
We have a 9m old, and I think some of these behaviours have either started, or worsened since his arrival.
The key worker seemed concerned that she lacked empathy, or the ability to understand that others have freewill, and lacks the perspective to recognise when people aren't happy / don't want to play, if they don't articulate it. So not picking up on body language for example.
I asked if this behaviour was normal (as from what we'd seen at home we assumed it was normal"ish" for a 3 year old with a new sibling) but key worker seemed pretty adamant that it was not typical.
I now feel really worried that there seems to be a lack of empathy and that this could indicate bigger problems or an underlying SEN?
I also feel quite lost as to how to tackle it, as I thought we were good patents who do our best to teach empathy, understanding, being kind and caring etc.
She will be 4 at the end of this month and is generally very bright, assertive and confident. Maybe too much so though?
Any advice very much appreciated!

I think it's really hard to know at this age if it's something or if it's not. What I think I would be doing is playing lots of games with her at home and making sure things frequently don't go her way. Do it gently but firmly. If she has ASD it might be really hard for her to put herself in the place of others and so appear to lack empathy. I would also try to give her some strategies to use if things don't go the way she wats - what can she do instead of lashing out. I would also really drum home the gentle/kind hands thing and get her involved with ds and give lots of praise for being kind/gentle.

I mean this kindly, but is she used to getting her own way or dominating things at home?

@Stichintime

I mean this kindly, but is she used to getting her own way or dominating things at home?

Not really, in fact since DS was born she probably has had to take a back seat much more. Of course there will be times when she gets her way too, but overall no - we definitely don't pander to her every whim. Having said that though, she spends a day a week with my mum who absolutely DOES pander to her, and I've had to bring this up several times in the past as I had concerns that some of her bad behaviour was coming from that. How do I tackle that? My mum seems completely unaware she's doing it, even when I've directly pointed it out. DD adores her, I wonder why!

I would strongly consider delaying her start at school for a year.

@suspiria777

I would strongly consider delaying her start at school for a year.

Oh really? What makes you say that? She's very bright, is spelling, and reading basic words now. From an intelligence stand point I think it would be problematic to delay her starting. What do you think might crop up when she's at school? I'd (optimistically) thought that getting to school might smooth things out as she'll have to just adapt. Maybe I'm being a bit naive.

3 and 4 year olds aren’t renowned for their empathy so I wouldn’t worry just yet about SEN.

Get your mum on board and do lots and lots of social behaviour role play. Talk about emotions and ‘reading’ people’s expressions. She’s very young to be starting school so is bound to be more immature than her classmates.

I don’t think you need to worry but you do need to help her. Apart from all the negative comments did the key worker actually suggest any helpful interventions?

I wouldn't delay her start to school, I'd start her and see how it goes. I'd be prepared to take her out if needed though.

If she's struggling with her social skills, school may just be too much for her and you don't want her to start off on a bad path. You don't want her to be the bully/the kid that no-one wants to play with. School is about so much more than academic intelligence. A child who is socially delayed could really struggle.

Or it could be the making of her! It will depend largely on the school and the resources they have for helping her.

Just know that taking her out is an option if you feel it's in her best interests.

In the meantime can you invite some friends over to play/organise some playdates so you can observe the behaviour for yourself.

I think you need to have a conversation with your mum about what's happening at nursery and the implications if she keeps pandering to her. I would be constantly modeling teaching you DD boundaries when your mums about. Would it help if you approached it as a problem you need your mums help with to sort out?

I wouldn't worry too much - be consistent with disciplining her at home (time out or whatever). My ds4 was like this - he was so different from his siblings and used to sometimes get quite aggressive with other kids at playgroup. When he started school he was fine though - they are much stricter there and I think the structure and rules at school were what he needed.

Once she starts school will that mean your mum won't be looking after her for a whole day?

Her behaviour doesn't sound significantly beyond the bounds of 'normal' to me but I think you must trust her keyworker - they know what is typical behaviour for this age, and have many other children to compare her too.

As pp have said, spend the Summer really focusing on her social skills, and providing opportunities for her to display empathy and kindness.

FWIW I don't feel that your mum will be the root cause of this problem. Even young children are able to understand that there are different rules in different settings. A more relaxed approach on one day should not unduly impact her development if she is consistently managed on the other six days. I assume we are just talking about a slightly more indulgent grandma rather than someone who encourages her to be unkind and thoughtless.

If she is very bright, she might struggle to cope with the emotional understanding that not everyone is as bright, think as quickly, always want to do the mentally stimulating activities.

It is no so uncommon for very bright kids to struggle with frustration. She might just need to learn that process and she is still very little. Have you notice that behaviour when she is with you and around other kids her age? I would encourage you to mix with other kids at home and to pick up on any behaviour and use it to teach her appropriate responses.

If she doesn't pick up on what you are teaching her, then yes, I would consider then whether SEN are a possibility.

Thanks for the messages, I really appreciate it.
I think she probably is ready to start school, despite likely being the youngest in her year. I think the main cause of her behaviours is jealousy (it sounds like she often acts out when Oscar plays with other children), and I imagine this has been exacerbated by the arrival of DS.
We will definitely take on a lot of the suggestions, as we need to nip this is the bud asap.
Yes, when she's in school then my mum will no longer be providing childcare, for DD at least (she still will be for DS).
It's not that there's fewer rules when DD is with DM, it's more that DM does absolutely anything she says - 'give me that toy/play hide and seek/I want a drink NOW/no, I said I want to do xyz'.
Me and DH don't give in to her demands, but DM just does. It's very tricky, as she's just a passive person in general (but that's for a whole other thread in itself), but I will do mh best to make it clear just how important it is that DD doesn't just get her own way all of the time.

vivainsomnia

I've just been speaking with a friend who is a teacher and who also knows DD fairly well. And she seems to think it's likely that it might be down to her being bright, and this causing confusion almost, similar to the reasons you gave.
We do have a lot of play dates and I do see DD get frustrated, but I've never seen her but or scratch other children.
My friend recommended Daniel Tiger to me? I don't know it, but apparently it teaches a lot about empathy.

There's an Usborne Book All About Friends. Which I have read to my kids we just do a couple of pages a day to help explain about friends. How we behave with friends and also what friends don't do. Might help bring out some conversations. One of my children is bright but his social skills are not as good as his sisters. He has little empathy (similar age to your child). I am working on the colour monster with him to try to help him understand and speak his emotions.
Reception is mainly just play if she is bright then holding her back likely to just frustrate her. Do listen to key worker though and try and improve social skills over summer. Play dates, turn taking games, take turns choosing activities to do together. Covid has probably limited her interaction with other kids over last 18 months. She probably just needs bit of help to catch up in this area. She won't be the only one! Good luck

Sounds normal but undesirable to me. If the key worker thinks it isnt then it's either a lot worse than you've described here or they need to go reread their child development notes.

3 years olds are just at the start of the journey of how to manage friendships. And they are naturally very self centred. They are very much a work in progress.

I would just see how things go when she starts to get settled in at the school, and stop worrying about a few little issues, It's a new environment for her, so takes a while to settle in. Some problems may arise, but they have to be dealt with bit by bit. If the teachers or staff, are good with small children, they should be able to deal with the different personalities of all the children. Obviously some help with things,pertaining to behaviour, have to be done at home too.

I think she just sounds like a little madam.. strong personality and wants what she wants. That's not abnormal. My son was the same at that age, he was such hard work and demanding and very spiteful to his younger sibling. But he was quite advanced and clever for his age and I think sometimes frustration takes over. They all develop in different ways. If she's bright and clever but she's slower at developing emotionally then she's going to become frustrated.
If she lashing out at a friend then she's probably jealous or wants the attention but doesn't know how to get it so all she can do is lash out in frustration. 3 is very young to have mastered all the concepts her keyworker has mentioned. I certainly wouldn't be concerned about SEN at this point.
And honestly, nursery staff don't always know what they're talking about. Nursery told me they had serious concerns about my son and that I should consider seeking support for his behaviour, but reality was he was just very bright but not very mature emotionally. When he got to school he evened out! He's now a very average 7yr old!

Also, don't forget the effects of covid on your child. They've missed a huge chunk of socialisation and at her age that will have had a real strong impact on her ability and she won't have had the same opportunities to develop her social skills as slightly older kids have. We cannot compare kids this year to kids last year or the year before. They haven't had the same chances!

I really wouldnt delay her school year, if there is anything underlying and im not saying there is, then school can assist in getting assessments underway, plans put in place etc, i would speak with the reception team about your concerns.

I would be asking the nursery what plan they have to help your daughter manage this behaviour when she is with them. You need to be clear that you will do your bit at home to back up this plan, but this has to be addressed by them and you together. You can't be expected to resolve issues happening at nursery, just back them up and do what you can at home. If they have concerns about her development, they can request a formal assessment is completed. Nurseries can have a one size fits all approach and not cater for children who are not as keen to fit the mould, sometimes the numbers of children they deal with means there is less flexibility ( children coming for a morning session and leaving, then more children coming for an afternoon session). You need to feel confident the nursery is handling this situation well and is the right environment for her.
You could ask your Health Visitor to review her, most areas do a form called a ASQ which assesses their general development, but can also do an ASQ SE as well, which looks more at her social and emotional development
She is only 3 and the main reason for her to go to nursery is to learn these social skills, find out about what is acceptable behaviour, learn to take turns and sit still, so she is more ready for academic learning once school age. The nursery should be more than qualified to deal with these situations
When you collect your daughter, try not to let her hear you discuss any negative behaviour with staff, it could lead to her feeling rather negative. If they say she has been well behaved make a big point of praising her. Hopefully the nursery will be doing the same.

I wouldn’t delay her start to school at all. I have a late August baby too and he was definitely a bit behind others when he started, socially and developmentally but smashed his GCSE’s and is currently writing his statement to apply to Cambridge. I say that only to encourage you about her being a young one in the year. I also wouldn’t be overly concerned just yet but you can use this chat to talk to your mum. Use the advice on here about playing games and ensuring she doesn’t always win etc, tell your mum that you’re doing this too so she doesn’t feel singled out

Ideally you would defer her reception.
My eldest was very very similar. In trouble a few times in nursery but it got a lit worse in reception. Hitting and scratching and biting which she hadnt done before.
Again she was a younger one and didnt really get better till y2.
Bright but naughty.
She still gets in trouble at least once per school year.
I agree it's a lack of empathy. Dd also had a 1yo sibling.
Dc2 we have deferred and have only spoken to school about behaviour once in all yr r.

Nursery will be comparing your d d to school ready near 5yo kids.
Unfortunately dd ended up left out of parties and at 9 now doesnt really have friends. I do suspect adhd pda/asd but unlike your dc was difficult all along.