Laurel Hubbard - radio 4 Today programme this morning

[cariadlet]

Just a heads up to everyone that this is going to be on this morning's Today programme. I'm sure that the main slant will be on what a pioneer she is but they did just play a clip of someone saying that biology trumps identity. Might be worth listening to.

@Covidforever

What shocked me (forgive my ignorance) was that no gender realignment surgery was required!

I had thought this was a minimum requirement but it appears any man can say he is a woman and go compete ? (subject to the rules of the governing sports federation)

Yes, many people are surprised to find that view has long gone. Being trans means identifying as trans. What that means is unclarified, but activists insist on "acceptance without exception" and campaign for self- identification to be the defining factor in whether you are a man or woman.

Most public companies and orgs have already made this their policy - e.g. I don't think you'll find any changing rooms etc that would say anything other than "identifying as a woman means you are a woman" for the purposes of entering what would previously have been a single-sex space.
Gender is a feeling in your head/ your innate soul/ your true identity, and it's seen as regressive to require any bodily changes (in trans women. Teen females are encouraged to have double mastectomies).

@Theeyeballsinthesky, as time goes on I increasingly think that this is the case. They are playing a very long game, as are many other campaigning organisations.

@Covidforever, yours was a common assumption. Don't feel bad about it.

@BingBongSong

Discussing on Radio 5 now.

Thanks for letting us know. I thought that was an improvement on the Today programme. Dr Emma Hilton came across really well.

There has never been a better case for scrapping the license fee.

@Covidforever

What shocked me (forgive my ignorance) was that no gender realignment surgery was required!

I had thought this was a minimum requirement but it appears any man can say he is a woman and go compete ? (subject to the rules of the governing sports federation)

So you think removing the penis would make the competitions fair?

Has Hubbard had surgery, or just hormone therapy?

I bet she won't win, either because she's not good enough or deliberately, coming second, say, and that will allow detractors to say that there is no problem with transwomen competing as they don't always win (ignoring all the other reasons behind her not winning!).

Hubbard has had no surgery at all. They have taken hormones to reduce their testosterone level to the allowable level which is much higher than that of a biological woman. A bio woman with T levels that high would be disqualified

@Covidforever

What shocked me (forgive my ignorance) was that no gender realignment surgery was required!

I had thought this was a minimum requirement but it appears any man can say he is a woman and go compete ? (subject to the rules of the governing sports federation)

Just repeating this again. A person does not have to have any surgery or hormones to be a transperson. On one hand this is good, because frankly it is barbaric to insist on irreversible surgery and hormones, but it does mean that many transwomen are still mostly male in physical attributes.

thanks for explaining. I was trying to google, and it was hard to tell, as all the article just said "began transition in 2012 with hormones..", and didn't say whether she had gone on to have surgery or not. It's really unclear online, all this ambiguous wording and no direct answers to the question.

I was explaining to someone yesterday that it was unfair that LH should compete, but other than saying she had gone through a male puberty, and was much older than the competitors, it was hard to persuade anyone else that it was unfair, when I didn't actually know 100% the full facts of what LH had done. Of course the general assumption was that she had had a full surgical transition, and I know that most people felt I was being a bit backward by being so decisive that she shouldn't be allowed, and felt that 'it was complicated' (I think mostly to shut me up, in the sense that they though it was probably fine/kind/liberal/modern, but out of politeness, didn't want to disagree too much; rather than in the sense of secretly having doubts about it but feeling that they had to say out loud that it was a difficult decision with good points on both sides).

@sst1234

There has never been a better case for scrapping the license fee.

Today's total non-sequitur

Hubbard won't win. I'll be amazed if Hubbard wins any medal at all.
They're around twice the age of some of their competitors with a history of injuries and unfit.

Meanwhile a gifted woman who has no doubt dedicated her life to qualifying for the Olympics, is sitting at home because of this decision.

This is what the IOC thinks of women's sport.

Those who have emailed, what main points have you made? I've gone with the issue of not having someone born a woman to speak, despite this affecting them.

Also did you sign off with your name?

@MyOtherProfile

Those who have emailed, what main points have you made? I've gone with the issue of not having someone born a woman to speak, despite this affecting them.

Also did you sign off with your name?

This was my email:

I was disappointed that the interview with Joanna Harper focussed only on testosterone levels rather than also considering the other advantages which athletes who have gone through male puberty have compared with athletes who have gone through female puberty. The physiological differences cannot be medically reduced by a transition. Men have better...
Muscle hypertrophy
Muscle Strength improvement
O2 carrying capacity
Metabolic response to exercise
Fat composition
Density of lipoproteins
Bone strength, length and density
Heart size and volume capacity
Hemoglobin effectiveness
Biomechanics (carrying angles, longer limbs, smaller pelvis)

Amol Rajan also failed to ask a pertinent follow up question when Joanna Harper said that World Rugby had banned transwomen from competing in women's rugby because they are bigger and heavier than biological women. Surely, the obvious follow up would have been to ask whether this also gives them an unfair advantage in weightlifting.

The whole piece was framed as looking at transwomen in sport rather than looking at women being excluded from women's sport because of the inclusion of biological males. Even with this framing, the piece would have been more balanced if you had included an interview with a representative from an organisation such as SexMatters or a woman athlete such as former Olympian Sharron Davies.

I hope that the next time Today decides to cover this issue, it will take a more balanced approach and consider the effects on women being excluded from women's sport.

Yours,
(real name)

Thanks that's really helpful. Have added a bit and sent with my name.

What shocked me (forgive my ignorance) was that no gender realignment surgery was required!

I had thought this was a minimum requirement but it appears any man can say he is a woman and go compete ? (subject to the rules of the governing sports federation)

And this is also what Girl Guides say.

Surgery doesn't change the reality that a male body is still a male body, even if it cosmetically looks more female.

Sex is coded in every single part of the body. You cannot change biological sex. You can only have cosmetic surgery.

Agree, it doesn't matter if LH wins or not, they took a place at the Olympic games from a woman.

@chunderwunder
Bore off

Does anyone know where we can watch live? Not in UK

@chunderwunder i only get in a frothy about trans women, seeing as trans men's participation in men's sport or access to their single sex spaces doesn't cause any unfairness or risk :) HTH

I don’t usually comment on these threads because of how nasty they can become, but I read an article about Alison Perkins the golfer recently and she absolutely gave me hope that women’s sport can still be protected. I wish they’d had her on the program. She’s clear that as much as she’d like to compete against women, it wouldn’t be fair. And that for me is a genuine trans woman, who identifies as a woman, lives her life as a woman and in no way wants to impinge on the collective of women.

In one of the sport segments earlier in the programme someone was saying how refreshing the mixed relays in swimming and triathlon were, giving a chance for men and women to compete together etc. So basically that is acknowledging that biological difference mean men and women generally can't compete against one another, and yet a moment later they are talking about Hubbard as though this situation is completely fair!

It's the emperor's new clothes, with reporters and officials tying themselves in knots trying to find ways to avoid saying the obvious: that much of how sport is governed and run is based on the fact that biological difference between the sexes mean men's and women's sport are separate.

Why don't they interview women weightlifters who competed at the 2000 and 2004 Olympics on whether a 43 year old woman could seriously ever be a contender for an Olympic spot. If this was a level playing field then those women, in Hubbard's age group, would still be in contention.

ladies please stop 'frothing', its such an unattractive look!

@ KnickersOnTheLine I hadn't heard of Alison Perkins but she sounds a really decent person.

@thebabessavedme
I think interesting points are being made . When there is the inevitable debate with my dad later on I will be better informed.
If you are not interested in the discussion then just block it instead of making pathetic comments.