Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think women had less choice about non consensual sex

76 replies

Leah2005 · 01/08/2021 12:09

Had a discussion with my DH last night starting with the fact that both our DGM's had more than 10 children each. I believe that women were less able to say no to their DH and frequently lay back and thought of England. That women were treated as chattel and with no other support, had to do as they were told. I'm not clear in my head when this started to change - I feel like the 1950's. Am I wrong? My DH was really upset by the conversation - I'm not sure if because I hold that belief or because it could have happened. I am aware that some women are still in this situation. Surely women with 10 kids in cramped housing conditions didn't think oooh I can't wait to have some sex? Or did they?

OP posts:
lavenderandwisteria · 01/08/2021 12:12

It was only 1992 when rape within marriage was against the law.

I think certainly many women had horrendous domestic situations simply because there weren’t any other available options.

TheSpottedZebra · 01/08/2021 12:13

Well of course!

Have you read the history of marital rape in the UK? It wasn't even a legal possibility (that rape could occur in a marriage) until... 1991. So, so recent.

TheSpottedZebra · 01/08/2021 12:14

And look at this: According to a YouGov survey commissioned by the End Violence Against Women Coalition (EVAWC) in December 2018, many British adults "remain confused about what constitutes rape" with "more than a third of over-65s" not considering forced marital sex to be rape, compared to just 16 per cent of 16-24-year-olds

Yikes.

Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow · 01/08/2021 12:15

I think women probably had the same amount of sex as women now but there was no safe, adequate contraception and safe, legal abortion was not a possibility.

VladmirsPoutine · 01/08/2021 12:18

@Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow

I think women probably had the same amount of sex as women now but there was no safe, adequate contraception and safe, legal abortion was not a possibility.
This pretty much sums it up.
RandomLondoner · 01/08/2021 12:21

I believe that women were less able to say no to their DH and frequently lay back and thought of England.

That may be true, but lack of contraception is the reason for the number of children. Even if women only had sex very infrequently, they could still easily end up with ten children.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 01/08/2021 12:21

@Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow

I think women probably had the same amount of sex as women now but there was no safe, adequate contraception and safe, legal abortion was not a possibility.
More this rather than insinuating women were basically raped all the time. Of ourse he will be upset when you basic say his grand father was raping (because that is what non consensual sex is) his grandmother.

While marital rape was and is still a horrible experience and an issue, ww can't just go and do "oh well, who would have all these kids in that condition? Must have been forced".

Northernlurker · 01/08/2021 12:22

I think there was very likely a lot of women coerced in to sex in the past but we shouldn't assume that was always the case.
Victoria and Albert are an interesting example. There is reasonable evidence that she enjoyed sex although she was also aware of the coercive possibilities, she talks in letters of feeling revolted that marriage meant a young girl was given to a man to do what he wanted. However she clearly never applied that to her sex with Albert.
Her granddaughter Marie of Roumania had a pretty disastrous sex life with her husband and her mother wrote to King of the Roumania that it was the husbands fault as he had been far too keen and pushy and had repulsed Marie as a result.
Alix, the last Tsarina, had a clearly happy sex life with Nicholas too.

But much harder to know what was happening in 'ordinary' homes

ThedaBara · 01/08/2021 12:23

Wasn't it the 70s when you could get the pill or diaphragm or whatever easily. Befor that, even if the sex wasn't non consensual you'd just end up pregnant once per year whether you liked it or not

CremeEggThief · 01/08/2021 12:27

YANBU. I am 43 and I would find it very difficult to believe there are many women over 35 who haven't had sex with their partners at least once just to keep them happy or because you feel obliged, even when you're not in the mood.

OhWhyNot · 01/08/2021 12:29

Sadly this very much did happen and women had been raised and informed from a young age you are to be dutiful to your husband

I doubt many pregnancies were met with of a feeling of anything other than dread and desperation

Moonbabysmum · 01/08/2021 12:29

I don't think it was necessarily about consent/lack of consent, I think most of the time it was just a given for both men and women that marriage equalled having sex. It would have been thought of as odd for a woman to refuse sex as to refuse to do the cooking, as both were an expected part of marriage for a woman.

So there was probably an unenthusiastic acceptance of the situation, rather than refusal and explicit overiding of consent if that makes sense. We wouldn't find it acceptable now, but there is a lot about marriage historically that would horrify us.

Moonbabysmum · 01/08/2021 12:32

I think most good men might feel like sex was their right, but wouldn't ask if their wife was ill/in pain/had just had a child out of love and consideration, rather than because it was her right to say no. So in a good marriage it probably wasn't an issue, but obviously there were a lot of abusive marriages where it must have been horrific.

burnoutbabe · 01/08/2021 12:32

Would they have even have known that sex was supposed to be fun for them? I mean there was no Cosmo was there!

mynameisnotkate · 01/08/2021 12:32

I think in previous generations, a lot of both men and women took it for granted that women were expected to submit, and the women would often just go along with it. It wouldn’t have been viewed as rape, but definitely doesn’t meet our current definition as lack of enthusiastic consent. And there were of course a lot of men actually who were physically forcing women and a lot who wouldn’t dream of having sex unless their wives were genuinely up for it - but just getting on with things because that was what was expected of you, and wives putting up with what their husbands wanted, was much more of a thing in those days.

x2boys · 01/08/2021 12:33

My Grandparents had six children in a three bedroom terrace house, after moving to England from ireland, i think its more likely that as the children were all born in the 40,s and 50,s there wasent access to reliable contraception than my Grandfather was a rapist

ActonSquirrel · 01/08/2021 12:33

The pill was introduced on the NHS in 1961.

I think that has a lot more to do with it. You can't imagine that a woman has a sex drive and wants to sleep with her husband?? The side effects if that without the pill or contraceptives in the 1950s were more children.

Not necessarily husbands forcing themselves on unwilling women.

WineAcademy · 01/08/2021 12:34

My ex stated in court that the reason he hit me was because I didn't put out often enough. These attitudes are very much alive and well today.

OhGiveUp · 01/08/2021 12:34

Back in the not too distant day women got married and effectively made their bed to lay on.
Contraception, including the pill could only be issued with their husbands consent, abortion was illegal.
They were effectively trapped with very little money as once they became mother's, or even pregnant, they stopped working.
They needed their husbands or father's signature to get credit and the police weren't interested in
' domestics ' including rape.
So effectively you had a married woman with several children who were trapped in the marriage as there was no place for her to escape to.
So the only solution was to stay where she was while birthing an endless stream of children.
Very sad

x2boys · 01/08/2021 12:35

Why are people assuming women in generations gone by didnt enjoy sex?

WineAcademy · 01/08/2021 12:40

@x2boys

Why are people assuming women in generations gone by didnt enjoy sex?
The orgasm gap exists now, in an era of open and free access to a plethora of knowledge and understanding of sec and sexual function, what makes you think the orgasm gap didn't exist generations ago, when religions had a firmer hold on people's minds and a woman enjoying sex was essentially painted as a sinner?
Pumperthepumper · 01/08/2021 12:40

@x2boys

Why are people assuming women in generations gone by didnt enjoy sex?
I don’t think that’s the issue here, I think it’s more the lack of choices historically for women in relation to sex. Lack of sex education, lack of contraception, lack of rights in relation to sex - there must have been a lot of women who saw sex as a marital duty rather than as something for them.
MenaiMna · 01/08/2021 12:45

In addition to the legality of marital rape, when birth control pills were first available access was tightly controlled. It was only easily available to already married women: lots of anecdotal evidence that savvy single feminist would visit an unfamiliar GP with a fake wedding ring for a prescription. The wider social context was that "promiscuity" was a mental illness (single mums could be committed or hidden away or sent to religious orders) so traditional men would want a wife who wasn't too enthusiastic about sex but wouldn't say no to her husband. Just look at all the toxic humour of the times - comedic tropes of "not tonight I've got a headache". Sorry I'm rambling but there is a much bigger picture that men have never had to take an interest in. Sorry his feelings got hurt but glad his eyes are opening just a bit.

Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow · 01/08/2021 12:48

Every generation thinks the have invented sex and that in the past sex was a lie back and think of England situation.
People might not have been swinging from the chandeliers but it doesn't mean there wasn't pleasure.

You only have to do a bit of family history research to find out how many people got married pregnant. Not everyone was saving it for the wedding day.

Also, think about how many women were forced to give up babies for adoption.

JulesCobb · 01/08/2021 12:51

@WineAcademy

My ex stated in court that the reason he hit me was because I didn't put out often enough. These attitudes are very much alive and well today.
What was the outcome?