To think if you are that short of staff you should employ 15year olds?

[SunsetandCupcakes]

I'm not that old, still old but in the v late 90s I had a job in the kitchens, my brother had a job selling ice creams at 14.
Catering near me is struggling to fill vacancies, it's the summer in a holiday town, two kiosks have had to close as no staff and yet my 15 year old isn't allowed to work.
How can working be more detrimental than sat at home on the PS4, we've ended up with a funny view on teenagers

@GreyhoundG1rl Why did you need the school's permission for your dd to do Saturday work?

There was a time (maybe there still is) where an employer needed an approval form signed by the school before they could legally employee a child.

Depending on the council they will need to apply for permit which is a faff, especially if the person then decides the job isn't for them... we had bitter experience 3 times. We don't employ under 17 minimum now

Numbertheory- really? I know loads if people who work in catering and have done myself, never thought of commercial kitchens as particularly dangerous places

in some parts of the world they would nearly be middle aged.

Well yes and there are reasons we have a reasonably long life span in the UK. One of those reason is we have laws to protect children.

Why did you need the school's permission for your dd to do Saturday work?

Because in order for the theatre to legally allow the dd to work they needed a permit from the council. To get the permit you need a headteachers letter agreeing to it.

I used to run kids drama classes. We ran from 4.00pm to 7.30pm after school. One girl attended from the age of 12. When she reached 16 I offered her a job helping to set up, assist with the little ones & clear up afterwards. Except she wasn’t allowed to work after 7pm even though she could attend until much later.

@Comefromaway

Why did you need the school's permission for your dd to do Saturday work?

Because in order for the theatre to legally allow the dd to work they needed a permit from the council. To get the permit you need a headteachers letter agreeing to it.

At the weekend?

@GreyhoundG1rl At the weekend?

The law at the time specified school approval needed for ALL work, any day, for children.

Oh, right.

The law is still the same except it’s up to the council as to whether they require the head teachers letter. My area still requires it.

@theheartofthematter

I find it funny that they can't employ under 16 because of the regulations about breaks etc. I live in a seaside town and my daughter works on our pier. She is 16 and regularly works 8 hour days with no break or up to 10 hour days. They do not give 2 shits about the regulations really because they know they can always replace staff with the next gullible 16 year old!

I basically came on to say this. DS is 16 and working for the third summer in a row in a seaside town.

Every kid I know is doing the same. We're in an area of social deprivation where the only work is seasonal - and almost every employer in town would rather have a 15 year old on £5 an hour than have to pay minimum wage to an adult.

Walk down the high street, passing arcades, burger bars, candyfloss stalls, ice cream shops, gift shops and car parks - and every single one of them is manned by (possibly) one adult and a bunch of teens.

Child employment

Many children work part-time, it can be a helpful source of extra money and good preparation for the future. But many jobs are illegal without a licence from the Local Authority.

The basic rules

Under national laws and County Council by-laws, licences can only be issued within strictly defined limits:

All work must be "light duties" only.
Children must be at least 13 years old to be employed.
13 year olds can only do a job on a specified list.
No child under school leaving age can work before 7am or after 7pm on any day (including school holidays).
No child can be employed for more than 2 hours on a school day and certainly not during school hours.
No child can be employed for more than 12 hours in a school week (including the weekend).
Sunday employment is restricted to 2 hours only between 7am and 7pm.

Saturdays and in school holidays

13-14 year olds can work a maximum 5 hours per day; up to 25 hours in total per week, (with a one hour break after 4 hours)

15-16 year olds can work up to 8 hours per day; up to 35 hours in total per week, (with a one hour break after four hours)

Work falling outside these restrictions is illegal and cannot be licensed.

County Council Byelaws Regulating the Employment of Children (216 KB)
If you want to employ a child you must:

Apply to for a work permit, for each child you wish to employ.
Adhere to the byelaws regulating the employment of children.
Carry out a risk assessment which takes into account the child’s age and maturity.
Tell the children’s parents about any risks and measures put in place to protect children from these.

Jobs that must have a licence

Any employment of a school aged child in a "trade or occupation carried on for profit" is illegal without a licence. This includes parents employing their own children in their business, even if they are not paid. Examples of work a child could be licenced for:

Paper rounds
Shop work
Cleaning
Work on farms
Clerical/office work
Leaflet delivery
Waiting at tables

Jobs that don't need a licence

Not all work is covered by the law on part-time jobs, itemised below are examples of part-time jobs that do not require a licence:

Children doing odd jobs around the house or for neighbours.
Babysitting
Work experience organised by your child's school.
Parents are strongly advised they know what their child Is responsible for doing and that they are safe.

Illegal employment

Some work cannot be licensed at all and cannot be legally done by school-age children, including any work in:

Factories
Building site
Serving alcohol
Milk deliveries
Sorting refuse
Working with food in commercial kitchens (including chip shops and take-away establishments).

This is not the complete list.

What should you do if your child wants to work?

Satisfy yourself the job is safe for your child - a paper round on dark mornings or nights may not be suitable.

Satisfy yourself the employer is reputable and the job is legal.

Ensure the employer applies for a licence and obtains your signature.

If you are the employer as well as the parent, make sure you get a licence if required.

Raise any concerns you may have, either with the employer or Families First.

Make sure your child has a licence to work until they are old enough to leave school - in most cases this will be after they become 16!
School leaving age

From 1998 onwards all children reach school-leaving age on the same date, no matter when they are 16. This is the last Friday in June of their final school year.

Hrtft but if he really wants to work he could try your local market if you have one, stall holders will often give a couple of hours cash in hand. Also Chinese takeaways pretty universally will have an early evening slot often paid cash in hand , certainly in our area, so possibly worth a try. My 15 year old often gets a bit of private labouring at the weekends and holidays. Patios, garden clearing, etc do you know any builders?

@statetrooperstacey

Hrtft but if he really wants to work he could try your local market if you have one, stall holders will often give a couple of hours cash in hand. Also Chinese takeaways pretty universally will have an early evening slot often paid cash in hand , certainly in our area, so possibly worth a try. My 15 year old often gets a bit of private labouring at the weekends and holidays. Patios, garden clearing, etc do you know any builders?

Sadly that is true. But "cash in hand" goes hand in hand with fewer (if any) safeguards, such as proper health & safety, insurance if something goes wrong, safe working policies, etc etc. Personally, I wouldn't want a child of mine working somewhere that doesn't follow employment laws, as if they don't care about one law (i.e. children working regulations) then they're probably not bothering about other laws either, such as food hygiene, fire precautions, etc.

My son read that Tesco are really needing staff but they won't take any under 16's. So he's stuck at home when could be helping out

We live in a popular seaside town and my 18 year old can't get any work in local shops, cafes etc, because they all want someone with experience. I saw an advert in the local newspaper for support assistants to work with people with learning disabilities. As I have worked in this field all my life, I suggested it to him a possibility. It turns out that they will only take applications from those with prior experience and those who can already use Makaton (a kind of simplified sign language used by some people with learning disabilities). They are paying minimum wage, yet are demanding skills and experience. How is someone to get their first step on the ladder ?

I believe it's more complicated for under 16ms to work now. They can but have to fill out paperwork. It's doable though and I do agree! Summer jobs was the best and great memories for me! My partner was working at 12 in the early 90's, I was a bit later. definitely more complicated now though!

I absolutely agree op. Teenagers are more than capable. My dd is desperate to earn some money but there’s nothing for that age group these days.

@gingganggooleywotsit

I absolutely agree op. Teenagers are more than capable. My dd is desperate to earn some money but there’s nothing for that age group these days.

Whilst teens are more than capable, it's the laws that make it hard for employers to take them on. Health & Safety, child protection, licensing laws, etc can sometimes be double edged swords.

It's asking a lot of an employer to make a written request to a child's school asking for permission, and then waiting, and waiting, and waiting for their response. (They're highly unlikely to get a response if they submit the form at the start of the Summer holidays until schools return in September, for example!).

Same with the restrictions, i.e. all the jobs/environments that they're not allowed to work within.

I remember a while ago, at a shop checkout, with some alcohol in my basket, and the shop assistant had to ring for someone else to come to take over the till as they were too young to "sell" alcohol.

When you look at all the things they can't do, and then all the rules/regs around the things they can do, it's not really worth the employer bothering at all!

It sounds like he needs to go self employed - helping him start his own business might be the best thing you can do OP, as the economy is moving more towards that model and its much less restrictive for ambitious kids!

@gingganggooleywotsit

I absolutely agree op. Teenagers are more than capable. My dd is desperate to earn some money but there’s nothing for that age group these days.

They are capable, but the laws in place mean that it's almost impossible to hire a fifteen year old.

Again, I just don’t get the desperation for DC to be working as soon as possible.

15 year olds should be enjoying their summers- not packed into commercial kitchens. They have decades ahead of them to work!

[quote Kazzyhoward]**@GreyhoundG1rl* Why did you need the school's permission for your dd to do Saturday work?*

There was a time (maybe there still is) where an employer needed an approval form signed by the school before they could legally employee a child.[/quote]
Sorry if this has already been posted.

Don't see too many restrictions, though they aren't allowed to work in kitchens.

childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/child-employment/

My DD is 21, she worked as a 15yo, many of her friends did too.

Don't see too many restrictions, though they aren't allowed to work in kitchens.

They also can't work all day on Sundays (two hours only) or all day on Saturdays unless it's the school holidays. Or before 7am or after 7pm.

Most hospitality places need weekend staff who can work long shifts - including Friday and Saturday nights, or they need cover for weekends when full-time staff may be off. You can't cover a Sunday shift with a 15yo who can only be there for two hours.

You can't cover a shift that doesn't finish until 11pm with someone who needs to leave and go home at 7pm. You can't cover a busy weekend with someone who needs an hour break for every four hours they work - it's just not practical.

Every employer has to balance the risk, benefit, and responsibilities of taking on young staff. Even if short staffed, they make judge it not worth it. I'm not going to make their risk assessments for them to say they 'should'.

It's quite possible to be engaged in something worthwhile and develop skills without it being paid employment. If the entire reason someone is 'incapable' or 'infantilized' is because they don't have a job, they'd likely be a crap employee anyways (and there are definitely people who remain that way while in work).

My DS1 had over 100 hours of community volunteering under his belt at 15. During the last year when most youth volunteering was shut, he worked on learning SQL and developing programming & other skills that he could then offer, but is back to more practical things now that it's slowly starting to open up again. He's spent the last week helping in allotments.

There are options for most teenagers to broaden their skill sets, way more than what we had in the '90s. They just take a bit more to look for than the local hospitality area which already have enough to deal with.

in some parts of the world they would nearly be middle aged.

No, they wouldn't. Living in an area with a low life expectancy doesn't mean people age faster - it means more children die, some from unsafe work.

See I think if you are already dodgy, age wouldn't make a difference

Yes it does make a difference, because other people can then intervene. 'The Rules' make intervention possible.

If you or your child want to campaign to change the laws around child labour or to make work more accessible for teenagers, go for it, that's how changes are made. Employers may still not want to hire them and that would still be within their rights, they have other options now too like automation, but if you feel strongly about it, go for it.