Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

Because it's part of an ideological approach to racism based in critical race theory, which results in people writing questions on forums addressed to all white people as though they are a homogeneous group with very similar shared opinions. To me this approach of grouping people by their skin colour and attributing characteristics to them based on it is racist.

The general sentiment of most people who agree with it, which is that they want to oppose racism, is obviously fine. It's the root ideology of the symbol that bothers me. I also think it's a very cheap and easy way to show you are 'good' - either by doing it or endorsing it, with very little substance or meaning. It's a typical social media #bekind approach of loudly endorsing something without actually having to do anything.

I also can't help having a negative reaction to any movement that extinguishes discussion by calling other people names. It's possible for someone to be very much against racism and also not certain about the helpfulness or relevance of 'taking the knee'. Anyone who insists otherwise is ideologically captured.

@Secondbellini

‘Didn't soldiers with shields kneel to form a ‘tortoise’ to protect the ones behind? That would be a Battle Ready kneel.’

No, because the tortoise moves! Everyone is stood up.

It could be used to protect archers/bowmen/artillery on the battlefield.

Why do you assume that only white people have a problem with it? I don’t know anyone of any colour who has a problem with it @Flayn

@FourEyesGood

Another middle-aged white person: I have no problem with anyone taking the knee and it made me quite emotional (in a positive way) when the footballers did it last night. It always reminds me of famous image of Martin Luther King Jr doing it: a passive, peaceful but entirely unambiguous protest.

I agree with this. I am Scottish, I wanted the English team to win because I think the whole squad have been fantastic throughout. My heart goes out to the young men who walked up there and took the shot. I am also thinking why didn’t some of the older, more experienced players take a pen? Jack Grealish is Captain of Aston Villa, surely he could kick a ball? I feel so, so sorry for these young black footballers.

@CoolCatTaco

I'm surprised at the number of posters willingly outing themselves as being on the racism spectrum.

this goady approach will do the opposite of improving anything and you know it.

The same way that forcing people to show humility and subservience always has the opposite results.

So are you trying to act against racism and force the changes that should already exist in a modern society, or are you just trying to be woke and fashionable and completely ignore the real issues?

How is MLK doing it not subservient? I mean, surely the point is that he is a preacher and he serves the people he ministers to? In this case, anti racism and the well being of black people being a huge part of his ministry.

I have no issue with people doing something which shows service, but I am unconvinced by other explanations, especially given Christian ministry is absolutely steeped in that symbolism.

No issues at all. White, 55.

Some responses to things already said. Taking the knee did not start as a reaction to the murder of George Floyd. Colin Kaepernick started doing it in 2016. It only arrived here last year - I think - but it's not just about the murder of black people by police in the US but the systemic racism in both the US and the UK.

For some people doing it, it probably is performative but it isn't for most and that's fine by me.

Far from achieving nothing, it has people talking. For many who aren't racists the boos from so-called England supporters because the team take the knee is educational. It proves that there is a problem here and in a way, it's necessary that we see that. I was listening to Gina Yashere on Woman's Hour (I think) last week and she was discussing the difference between racism here and in the US. In the US it's in your face, here it's more subtle and because of that, it's so easy to say "Oh, no that wasn't actually racist, that was - insert whatever bollocks here" and she had it spot on. While all of that remains true, while black players get racist abuse because they missed a penalty, while right-wing wankers say "Oh, no, it's not because he's black, you understand ..." and so on, and so on, then taking the knee remains not just a gesture but a necessity.

To be fair, I'd prefer the black power salute but the knee will do.

@CoolCatTaco

I'm surprised at the number of posters willingly outing themselves as being on the racism spectrum

Do you mean that if someone refuses to do this gesture, they are racist?

@Rockitrosie

• Firstly, nobody is asking you to 'take the knee'. You aren't in the England football team - I'm guessing, in fact, that you have no public profile at all - so you're probably not being called upon to publicly show solidarity with a particular value in a way that might influence others. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested to know in what situation you've felt pressurised to take the knee.
• Taking the knee isn't just 'pro BLM'. It's an anti-racist gesture - i.e. a statement in support of equality and opposing prejudice, which we frequently see in football. Which part of your Christian faith (e.g. the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels) conflicts with this? My understanding is that Jesus was a social revolutionary whose message - often expressed quite forcefully - was all about not hating or judging others.
• I'm not sure there's really any need to kneel to an invisible deity, if you're not happy kneeling in any other context.
• Virtue signalling is a form of hypocrisy. It's making an empty gesture when your actions actually send the opposite message - e.g. you clap for the NHS on a doorstep but don't do anything to protect others from Covid. That isn't what the England team are doing - they have nothing to gain from pretending to support a cause, and quite a few of them have been victims of racism, as we well know. If in doubt, read Gareth Southgate's letter 'Dear England'.

@Loubiemoo

Why do you assume that only white people have a problem with it? I don’t know anyone of any colour who has a problem with it *@Flayn*

Obviously you haven't read the thread then.

No problem at all with how anybody expresses their support. As long as it isn't just empty virtue signalling. I don't think it is just virtue signalling in sport BTW.

@CoolCatTaco

I'm surprised at the number of posters willingly outing themselves as being on the racism spectrum.

I'm surprised at the willingness to dilute the idea of racism to include anyone who applies some critical thought and doesn't do what they're told! Once you start applying such a label indiscriminately it loses it's force as a means of ostracizing indefensible positions from the mainstream.

‘It could be used to protect archers/bowmen/artillery on the battlefield.’

I think there’s a confusion here between a shield wall and a Roman tortoise.

redcarbluecar said it so much better.

I find it an odd gesture - I think that's because of the American context of it which doesn't resonate with me.

I also think for a lot (not all) of people doing its a hollow virtue signalling gesture.

Nicky Winmar's protest on the other hand still gives me shivers

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/13/nicky-winmar-statue-is-not-just-about-footy-its-about-australia-as-a-nation

@endofthelinefinally Why, thankya

'Race baiting' 'woke' 'virtue signalling' 'all lives matter'....as soon as people start using lazy terminology like this I switch off. Straight out of the dodgy right wing ideology text book.

Just looked at the Wikipedia entry for it and apparently it was used in the George Floyd protests!!

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation

I think you missed a ‘thought police’

What do woke people want to be called then?

*Also, I do find it interesting that despite the fact that 50% of the entire world's population is female, and that men commit the vast majority of sexual crimes which have been used as a weapon of war and which can lead to life long illnesses and PTSD, despite the fact that quite a few sportmen have been involved in some dodgy incidents involving women.......there is no similar gesture for women.

On that topic the football players are perfectly silent.

Funny isn't it?*

Clearly a supporter of the 'All Lives Matter Movement'

Disrespectful Idiot.

I think I introduced the confusion between a Tortoise and a Shield Wall. I meant the latter, when you would adopt a battle ready kneeling stance.

Yep. It's interesting that so many posters simply aren't understanding this. They seem to be interpreting taking the knee as existing in some kind of vacuum.

This is part of the problem with the gesture. It is ambiguous, easily misinterpreted even by those coming to it in good faith, and almost universally misunderstood. If we want to go in for gestures I think we need a different gesture.

Assuming all 'white people' have the same opinion is just as offensive as assuming all people of another colour have the same opinion.

Some people object to the BLM political movement due to their anti-Semitism.

Hi OP
In my view I dislike the taking of the knee and indeed any form of protest in the sports arena at all. This is nothing whatsoever to do with colour,faith,religion politics,anything at all except i believe that sports men/women are paid to compete in their chosen field and they should do just that,If they wish to convey their personal views regarding any matter then they are free to express themselves in their own way and in their own time publically or indeed privately, I expect our footballers to go on the pitch,kick the ball about and do their jobs for 90 mins thats all,