To work when I’ve been signed off?

[BluePi]

I’ve been signed off work (because of a mh blip that’s turning into more than a blip) for the past couple of months but I’ve continued to work.
Work are unaware but they’re incredibly unsupportive and I’d almost certainly lose my job if I take any significant time off.
Legally I can still work can’t I?
Am I bu by still working and not informing them?
If it makes any difference, I work f2f with vulnerable people but there’s nearly always 2 of us.

Brent? *been

I don't meant to scare you but not only that but also as far as I know you could be sued.

I thought if you weren't 'fit for practice' you shouldn't be doing it. Or does that only apply to health workers?

Surely it is your responsibility to judge if you are fit for practice? And you have a sick note so you are not.

I completely agree that it would help my mh by taking time out, it really is needed. I’m not exaggerating.
It won’t help me if I lose my job though, there is real risk of this. I had time off towards the end of last year (mh) and then again in April (chest infection). I had a verbal comment from my manager when I went back saying I’d better not need any more time out again.
I’m so torn.

@BluePi the key thing that jumps out at me is driving while under the influence of sedating medication. The rules were updated a number of years ago and they are very strict on the matter.

Pressed post too early, on the assumption that driving is required

Shit? I could get sued?
Ok so I need to either get ‘signed back on’ or take time out?
Re driving, I do drive but I only drive myself. It’s legal to drive whilst using the prescribed dose if it doesn’t affect your driving and it’s under the dosage driving limit (which it doesn’t and is).
Thanks for making me see sense. I still don’t know what to do but I can see I have to do something.

Just reading back through and I can see if missed a couple of questions.
We don’t have a ‘fit for practise’ policy or anything even close. I’m quite senior and if I’m off it does throw a spanner in the works with regard to cover.
The doctor would refer me on but I’m already under the cmht who I’m due to see next week I think.

At my work place i tried this. But because I'd been signed off it was an absolute no no due to insurance reasons.

@Menora

It is not illegal to work on sick leave - I recently did this myself (pressure from work to do so) but although this protects your sick leave record and ensures you get paid, it’s not good for your mental well-being. There will be company policy regarding sick leave and working whilst off sick is usually not within the policy. You might be breaching your contract if you aren’t disclosing a health concern or need for sick leave that could affect your work but you would need to check your contract and policy. You could leave yourself at risk anyway if you are working with vulnerable people but not fit for duty.

A sick note is advisory guidance from a HCP, you know your own body - I was physically not fit for duty so I did not go into the office. I WFH though at my own pace and stayed on my sick leave to help them out

A lot of people do this as they won’t get sick pay, or pressure from work.

Take care of yourself, get advice from HR?

What a strange post. A sick note is not advisory. It is an opinion from a medical professional that you are not fit to work. Obviously medical professionals can not stop you going to work but working will then absolutely invalidate any liability insurance your employers have. No insurance company will insure a mistake made by someone that a medical professional has said is not fit to be doing the activity. If you haven't told them then the vacarious liability that companies have for their employees could be invalid. You have to tell them.

If work is u supportive and you feel they are threatening you can call ACAS for advice on the sickness, grievance and disciplinary policy. There must be policies on health and safety where you work, what sort of organisation is it, is there a need office or area manager.

@Northofsomewhere

I mean this gently, why doesn't your work know you've been signed off? Surely that's the whole point of getting a doctor's sick note, to be able to take time off work without the risk of losing your job in the hopes you'll get better enough to return to work.

I also thought a sick note offered some protection against being sacked (although there are likely some exceptions).

I think you need to inform work that you have a sick note and take time off if that's what the sick note allows you to do and you think it would be beneficial to your MH.

A fit note is advisory and you can certainly be sacked whilst being covered by a fit note.

@DogsSausages

If work is u supportive and you feel they are threatening you can call ACAS for advice on the sickness, grievance and disciplinary policy. There must be policies on health and safety where you work, what sort of organisation is it, is there a need office or area manager.

This All the OPs posts are showing a lack of work place support and understanding. 'you'd better not have any more time off,' from a manager. That's not good. Without knowing, you would wonder how much of the MH issues are being exuberated by the work place.

What a strange post. A sick note is not advisory. It is an opinion from a medical professional that you are not fit to work. Obviously medical professionals can not stop you going to work but working will then absolutely invalidate any liability insurance your employers have. No insurance company will insure a mistake made by someone that a medical professional has said is not fit to be doing the activity.

This is utterly untrue. Companies have occupational health services for this exact reason.

The GP only has a duty of care to their patient, not the patient’s employers. Since sick notes became fit notes the medical advise is just that - advice - not a legal instruction not to work.

The bit about being sued is worst case scenario.

I can only echo what others have said. In addition for example if you were to make a mistake with someone who was vulnerable and it were to emerge that according to G.P you had been deemed not fit to work and had carried on working, I imagine you would be in a right pickle and that wouldn't help your mental health would it.

Much better if you can access as others have said occupational health and come up with some kind of a staged plan (with counselling?) which is to be reviewed.

Also run it past your union if you have one.

I'm sorry your MH is not great. Pandemic etc has got to many of us and not operating at full capacity is something i struggle with too, though I hope for example in six months time things will change.

@MittensOnKittens03

Your work cannot fire you if you have signed off sickness. What does it say in your contract?

That really isn't true.

This is precisely why you shouldn’t post tricky employment issues in AIBU/chat.

People have posted so much incorrect advice on here.

Let's say your a social worker in children's services. You are struggling mentally and need time of. You don't listen go to work and don't do a good enough job. Meanwhile whilst you was struggling mentally and not able to work properly a child becomes severely injured or dies. You lose your registration for working when you was advised not to

@beigebrownblue

The bit about being sued is worst case scenario.

I can only echo what others have said. In addition for example if you were to make a mistake with someone who was vulnerable and it were to emerge that according to G.P you had been deemed not fit to work and had carried on working, I imagine you would be in a right pickle and that wouldn't help your mental health would it.

Much better if you can access as others have said occupational health and come up with some kind of a staged plan (with counselling?) which is to be reviewed.

Also run it past your union if you have one.

I'm sorry your MH is not great. Pandemic etc has got to many of us and not operating at full capacity is something i struggle with too, though I hope for example in six months time things will change.

As the employer is not entitled to the OP’s Medical records, how would it “come out that they had been signed off”?

Are you a member of a professional body such as the HCPC, SWE etc? If so you could be struck off if something happens and you were working while deemed unfit to work.

My understanding is they are “fitness to work” certificates now not sick notes. The change was made to allow you’re GP to say you can work but with certain adaptations and therefore to have people take less sick leave when they could actually work if some changes were made.
Sounds like you fall into that bucket OP. You want to work, can work but at same time you are struggling mentally. You need to figure what are you’re trigger points and how your work could be changed to maximise your mental well-being. That could be slightly reduced hours, or stopping certain tasks that are causing you particular stress. All this could be permanent changes or temporary ones, or phased ones of gradually increases in hours.
Once you figure out what will help you go back to GP and discuss with them and ask them to record their recommendations on the wellness note and submit to your employer. They are bound by law, I believe, to take the request seriously and try to make the recommended changes, or explain why they can’t.
Don’t do nothing and just continue to work. You’re not helping yourself in long term .but it doesn’t need to be work/don’t work at all option.

Look, your GP isn’t an occupational health department - the provide fit notes on the basis of the consultation with the patient - things change. I had a 6 week note I didn’t need 6 weeks. Often they will do 2 week notes for this reason. It is advisory! I assure you

“Although employers have a liability to pay SSP to qualifying employees, it is up to the employer to decide in the first instance whether they accept that their employee is incapable of work. A doctor's statement is usually strong evidence of incapacity and should normally be accepted as conclusive, unless there is evidence to the contrary, but the decision ultimately rests with the employer.
If an employer has good reason to believe that his employee's incapacity is not genuine, they can refuse to pay SSP despite a medical statement. If the employee disagrees with the decision, they can ask the HMRC Disputes team in Newcastle for a formal decision on the matter. Alternatively, the employer can, with the employee's consent, seek a report direct from the employee's doctor or from the company's own medical advisors, or Atos Healthcare’s Medical Services. HMRC have a contract with Atos Healthcare Medical Services to provide advice about employees' incapacity for work in connection with SSP. They can also give medical advice when lengths of sick absence seem unreasonable or when an employee has several periods of short term absences. Further information can be found on the HMRC website.”

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/251504/hcp-reports-q-and-a.pdf

@MittensOnKittens03

Your work cannot fire you if you have signed off sickness. What does it say in your contract?

Yes, they 100% can. If you're not capable of doing your job long-term (for whatever reason) they can terminate your contract on capability grounds.

@NavigatingAdolescence

What a strange post. A sick note is not advisory. It is an opinion from a medical professional that you are not fit to work. Obviously medical professionals can not stop you going to work but working will then absolutely invalidate any liability insurance your employers have. No insurance company will insure a mistake made by someone that a medical professional has said is not fit to be doing the activity.

This is utterly untrue. Companies have occupational health services for this exact reason.

The GP only has a duty of care to their patient, not the patient’s employers. Since sick notes became fit notes the medical advise is just that - advice - not a legal instruction not to work.

But at no time has the OP said the employer has obtained a medical opinion. So why are you saying this inaccurate information. We have one medical opinion that the person is not fit to work. Nobody said this is a legal instruction not to work but the situation is that if you work and mess up the insurance company will not accept liability. If the employer gets a medical opinion that says they are fit to work then that is different. You talk about duty of care. Nobody said the duty of the Dr for the OP should extend to employer, why would it? But the employer has a duty of care to their clients and employees. Has a vacarious liability for their employees. If an employee causes harm when the only medical opinion is they shouldn't be doing the activity. How do you think that will pan out. If the employer doesn't know about the medical advice or they get their own advice through OH, then that is different.

And of course you can go back to Dr before the end of the cert and say you are better. Then you get another medical opinion. If it says yes, then back you go.
And of course your employer can carryout their own medical assessment,
And of course you can be sacked whilst sick through the correct process. Employers don't have to keep people on who are never going to be fit to work .

And if you are sick because of work, then that is another issue.
Anyway, hope you are getting better as that is the main thing.

People who are incapacitated/cannot work are forced to undergo assessment to prove this to DWP. Their own GP opinion is taken into account but this can be disregarded

PP are correct, If you fail to disclose a medical condition or medication that may affect you, you could be in breach of your employment contract and be an insurance liability. My car insurance company wouldn’t insure me to drive for 6 weeks, even though I physically could. Despite this there are many reasonable adjustments a workplace could make and a fit note has this purpose. A doctor is declaring you unfit to work at that point in time but they can’t dictate anything to the employer. They act on behalf of their patient