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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why are A&Es getting so busy?

242 replies

User112 · 22/06/2021 21:05

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/hospital-emergency-black-alert-barnsley-hospital-b1870819.html%3famp

OP posts:
TrickorTreacle · 22/06/2021 22:42

The problem pre-dates covid and Brexit.

I remember as far back as 2015 it being a problem. Only appointments that were 3 weeks away were offered, which was no use because the problem will have either gone away by then or have gotten worse. This resulted in trips to A&E because I had no other option.

It wasn't a problem in the 2000s. Definitely a 2010s thing.

Same GP practise.

persnickle · 22/06/2021 22:45

I'm sorry @Frogshoe

Poppins2016 · 22/06/2021 22:47

My GP sent me to A&E during the first lockdown because they couldn't/wouldn't see me the same day in order to prescribe antibiotics for an infected wound. I made sure to tell the A&E department that I was there because the GP sent me rather than because I felt it was appropriate use of the service (but I did attend because the signs of infection were getting worse and the A&E staff reassured me that it was the right thing to do in the circumstances, antibiotics were duly prescribed).

Robostripes · 22/06/2021 22:48

@Thedot90 yes we tried for several days but could not get the last bit out for love nor money. The minor injuries unit made a small incision which didn’t seem like the sort of surgery I should attempt myself at home.

TheMotherlode · 22/06/2021 22:48

So sorry @Frogshoe Flowers

LakieLady · 22/06/2021 22:49

I- new houses make people move from other areas? If so isn't thay just creating capacity elsewhere?

While it might create capacity elsewhere, that will soon be used as new residents will move into the property vacated by the people moving into the newbuilds. And it doesn't help at all if those people are moving from 50 miles away, or even from the adjacent CCG.

When estates of 100s of houses are built on the outskirts of small country towns, with no increase in service provision, the pressures are immense.

A planning application has been submitted to build 3,000 houses around a very small village a few miles from where I live. Even if they have, on average, just 2 occupants per property, that is 6,000 extra people. The CCG area that this development is centred on a town of approx 20,000 people, all served by a group practice (until recently, 3 smaller group practices). Six thousand extra patients would be a 30% increase in demand, for a service that is already at capacity.

If it goes ahead, the implications for healthcare here are horrific. And don't get me started on dental provision ...

LakieLady · 22/06/2021 22:52

@TrickorTreacle

The problem pre-dates covid and Brexit.

I remember as far back as 2015 it being a problem. Only appointments that were 3 weeks away were offered, which was no use because the problem will have either gone away by then or have gotten worse. This resulted in trips to A&E because I had no other option.

It wasn't a problem in the 2000s. Definitely a 2010s thing.

Same GP practise.

I agree.

Things have got much worse and health spending hasn't kept up with demand in primary care.

We're seeing the impact of a decade of under-investment.

yeOldeTrout · 22/06/2021 22:55

:( to read some of these stories on this thread when there are so many threads on MN that go like...

"I recently noticed a very subtle health change. It causes me zero actual problems but..."

--"that could be XYZ but it could be ABC so you must get it checked out"

"yeah I've had (long list of medical tests and results) in last year which didn't find anything wrong with me, but this thing is new and I don't understand it and I'd be getting different tests this time..."

-"definitely must get it checked"

Meanwhile, I'm thinking wtaf why can you not handle fact that bodies change over time.

MustardRose · 22/06/2021 22:55

@tiredanddangerous

I expect GPs not seeing patients has something to do with it in some cases.
Some cases? Loads, more like.

If everyone else's GP surgery is as impossible to contact as ours, then it isn't much of a surprise that A&E is heaving.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/06/2021 22:56

I attended our local minor injuries/walk in centre on Sunday and there was a huge poster that said 47% of a&e visits were unnecessary and could have been dealt with by GP/111/Pharmacist.

So the question should be why the hell is it so difficult to get a GP appointment and why do 111 so often recommend a&e when it isn't necessary

KimberleySakamoto · 22/06/2021 22:57

I ended up in A&E on the advice of 111 (chronic condition, managed with drugs, though I needed to know if I could combine drugs due to intolerable pain; 111 couldn't answer, so referred me to telephone duty GP, who in turn sent me to A&E).

Waited 9 hours, and spent most of that in excruciating pain and in tears. A&E reception staff administered oral morphine at regular intervals. Finally saw an A&E doctor, who was the most shining star. The first thing she did was apologise for the wait: she said they have a 1/3 of their normal staff, and are overwhelmed with people who should have seen GPs and can't. She told me some of the things she had experienced that week, and any mother would have been horrified.

I was there only because I have spent the time since March 2020 failing to have my condition properly treated. I have seen a GP in real life once in 15 months. I should (and would, in normal circumstances) have seen a GP and several consultants in that time.

Gembie · 22/06/2021 23:00

Patients are presenting late with diseases due to various reasons - fear of covid is still a big worry. If A&E has a higher proportion of v sick patients it slows the whole department as they need more attention - it was a tidal wave waiting to happen

JassyRadlett · 22/06/2021 23:19

Another recent experience when a GP could have relieved the pressure on A&E. Last month MIL had over a week's worth of pain, GP wouldn't see her. Ended up in A&E in agony, spent hours in the waiting room, was admitted and by the time they did a scan her appendix had burst.

Fluffycloudland77 · 22/06/2021 23:21

I think everyone’s being funnelled through a+e at the moment.

BobMortimersPetOwl · 23/06/2021 05:37

I called my surgery to request a phone consultation. I explained to the receptionist that my hayfever was unmanageable and I just wanted a prescription for strong antihistamine, because by mid afternoon some days my eyes were so swollen I couldn't see.

I was told no appointments for 3 weeks so I could just buy over the counter stuff. I explained that obviously I've been doing that and they aren't working, then was told to go to A&E if its that bad.

I went on their booking system online after the call to see if it really was 3 weeks, and there were loads of appointments with the nurse available so booked one with her for first thing the next morning and got my prescription sorted thankfully.

But crap information from surgeries coupled with them delaying returning to normality is pushing people into A&E needlessly.

traumatisednoodle · 23/06/2021 05:45

Oh & DM had to go to A&E as GPs don't answer the phone & she needed a prescription

Please tell me you didn't go to A&E for a repeat perscription.

bluenemo · 23/06/2021 05:50

I think GPs aren't available and a backlog from last year.
Last year my GP refused to see anyone. Now it is very very difficult to see them and they definitely prefer to fob you off several phone calls before even suggesting they see you.
For our gp you call at 8:30 for an app. I phoned at 8:30 and got the switchboard. My dh phones at 8:33 on the same day and he got a message saying there are no longer any app to call back tomorrow.

Last year a&e in my area was appointment only (!) booked via 111. When my dd had an accident and I thought she'd broken her arm in august last year 111 told me they would ring back. Because it was hours later they rang back by this time the minor injury unit had closed for the night (that was also app. Only)

I then rang 111 again as dd was in a lot of pain. (This was hours later) 111 told me again someone would ring back. A few hours later I rang 111 and told them I'm taking dd to a&e they said they didn't think it was necessary, to keep administering calpol. I'm not sure how they could even tell over the phone with the few questions they asked but either way I went to a&e and dd had broken her arm. This was now 7hours after she's broken it. She was 6 yo ffs. This is what our dc are having as healthcare!

The whole system is broken. It already was though. In addition to these problems prior to covid, people like me who worked ft couldn't really ever see a gp. I used to have to take annual leave to go to the gp which puts you off going but now I'm wfh I can go without my company really knowing because I don't have to commute to work anymore so can fit app. In. So this probably increases demand too.

colinthecaterpillars · 23/06/2021 06:09

I work in my local hospital I'm part of the bed flow and ours is because the government have said anyone with a headache after their A/Z vaccine should go to A +E for scans and full blood count to rule out blood clots. As well as other reasons for a visit. It's at capacity at midday and this is the 5th largest hospital in Europe.

HereBeFuckery · 23/06/2021 06:40

@sparemonitor
"I don't have to imagine the number of people who ring me up for a sore throat of 3 hours duration, athlete's foot, conjunctivitis or a myriad of things for which the pharmacy is far more appropriate."

you know this. You have years of medical training to allow you to distinguish between a sore throat and tonsillitis. Your patients don't know this - nor should they. GPs are forever whinging about patients self diagnosing via Dr Google; now you're criticising your patients for not having your level of expert evaluation. How are they supposed to know what's wrong with them? Are we all meant to go to medical school?

When people get sick, they get scared. If you don't understand why patients come to you with minor ailments wondering if they are about to cark it, you shouldn't be a doctor.

Oh, and as for your 'IF' GPs aren't seeing people face to face - do fuck off. I had an ectopic pregnancy in May which my GP failed to pick up over the phone (surprise surprise). As a result I had an emergency salpingectomy. As I was being consented, the GP called back - five days after he'd promised to call back that afternoon to see if things had changed. Don't you dare say 'if that's true'. My GP practice were negligent because they are flat out refusing face to face appointments.

sparemonitor · 23/06/2021 06:49

[quote TheMotherlode]@helpmeeee11 - genuine question, why are GPs busier? It is all covid related, because they’re busy managing the vaccine rollout, or something else?[/quote]
Where do I start. TL:DR The short answer is increased workload falling on less GPs and systematic defunding of the NHS for decades. Not a political thing - Blair was one of the worst for creaming off money to the private sector and of course the Conservatives aren't friends of the NHS. If you want the long answer then read on....

GP funding has fallen year on year in real terms since 2004. In that time the number of times the average patient sees their GP per year has gone up from about 2.5 to 7 - and yes, this takes into account all the people we never see. Some patients have weekly or twice-weekly contact with the practice, for medical or social reasons.

The number of hospital beds has fallen over the last 30 years and all that work has come to primary care, largely unfunded. So, for example, when I trained nearly 20 years ago, most people with type 2 diabetes moved to secondary care once they started on insulin. Now we manage all that ourselves and only refer if the person has end-organ damage. 30 years ago if you had a heart attack, your GP basically tucked you up in bed with some morphine and came back the next day to see if you were still alive. Now we do masses of primary prevention (lipids, blood pressure etc) to reduce heart attacks and for those who do have one we manage very aggressively afterwards. This is of course good that heart attacks and strokes have fallen, but it is all new work.

Mental health in the community is a joke. Psychiatry are underfunded and understaffed so we end up holding very high risk patients, working outside of our area of expertise and outside where we are comfortable because there are just no services.

The general public are hugely demanding. It is no joke that I get calls from people with low back pain for one day who have taken nothing over the counter, with athlete's foot, dry skin, from people who have broken up with their boyfriend (and I mean just sad about the end of a relationship, not actual depression). The lack of the extended family has made a big difference I think. There is a definite lack of personal responsibility.

Mission creep - I so often hear on the radio that GPs are 'ideally placed' to do whatever the soapbox of the speaker is. Again, this work generally comes with no extra resources.

Covid - we had a few weeks of being quiet while people stayed away but then we had to manage shielding, the challenges of seeing people whilst maintaining social distancing in the waiting room, managing staff illness (my practice had both doctors and admin staff seriously ill and several staff lost close family), and then of course along comes the vaccine. The contractual arrangements for the vaccine were designed so that practices would lose money on it and most have. That's money that will have to come out of future services which will mean less GP time. We now need to catch up on all the things that weren't done due to covid and manage all the people who are deteriorating because they aren't getting their hospital care in a timely manner.

The move to secondary care virtual clinics has led to letters like 'I saw Mrs Smith virtually therefore please could the GP listen to her heart, arrange a blood test and ECG and send me the result'. This is yet more unfunded work when in reality secondary care should be saying 'I saw Mrs Smith virtually, I need to listen to her heart so have arranged to see her face to face and I have done forms for an ECG and blood tests'. This was an ongoing issue of secondary care moving unfunded work to primary care and it has got worse. To be fair to the hospitals they are of course also overwhelmed.

GP burnout. I'm one of those evil part time GPs - I have a portfolio career and when I'm not in the surgery I have lots of roles in GP education, appraisal, medical politics and other things. These all have to be done - we need GPs in the background doing these. But I moved to a portfolio career as I was becoming burnt out as a full time GP. Full time GP is basically unsustainable now for the vast majority of people. Days are often 12 hours, so a 'part time' 3 day a week GP might well do over 36 hours which is close to a full time normal working week.

Pressures of admin - we are accountable to the CCG, NHSE and CQC as well as the press, the GMC and various other bodies. The GMC has just been shown to be institutionally racist, great for a governing body. No-one will tell vexatious complainants to go away. One of the partners at my practice spent 8 hours replying to a complaint from a no-win no-fee solicitor, the gist of which was that an elderly man in a nursing home hadn't been seen. She had to document every single interaction with this patient who, it turned out, had been seen 42 times in the last year. The same family then complained to NHSE and we had to reply again. I have no idea if they will come back via another solicitor.

I could go on but you're probably bored already. You need to know that GPs are leaving in droves because of all of the above. From the output of most GP training schemes around half go abroad straight away. We are doing our best in really difficult circumstances.

RomComPhooey · 23/06/2021 06:50

Our GP surgery was really well organised before the pandemic and we’ve always been able to get a same day appointment for emergencies/urgent problems. They also allowed advanced bookings for less urgent problems and there was nearly always an appointment within a week if you were happy to see any doctor in the practice. They have continued throughout the pandemic with a mix of phone appointments and F2F with decent availability. They are all excellent doctors, so we have no problem getting good care at our surgery.

This is not typical in my area. I have friends and neighbours who struggle to get seen at other nearby surgeries and often wait for 4-6 weeks for an appointment. Our surgery seems to have nailed it and it’s not about list size or population - they are all running with near full lists and working with the same population. I wish others could learn from them. I know from talking to a GP friend in another area how tough primary care has been over the last 15 months, so I have no doubt all surgeries are running at full pelt.

We wrote our surgery a card at the start of the pandemic to tell them how much we appreciated them and to wish them well for the looming emergency. I can feel another thank you letter coming on, as they’ve provided excellent care for DS during the last year and recently referred him on to a consultant for further investigation.

So, to @sparemonitor and any other GPs reading - many of us do appreciate what you do and understand the pressures you are working under. Thank you.

To those of you complaining, maybe look for a different surgery that runs its appointments system and service differently if you are unhappy with your current one. Surgeries organise themselves differently and you may find one that better meets your needs.

persnickle · 23/06/2021 06:51

@traumatisednoodle DM had recently been discharged after emergency open heart surgery & has to be on blood thinners for life plus a number of other drugs for about a year. We couldn't get in touch with the GP, what would you suggest?

sparemonitor · 23/06/2021 06:51

[quote persnickle]@sparemonitor I complained to DMs practice manager about the dreadful service. They haven't even acknowledged my email, should I take it further? [/quote]
Yes. There are strict timescales for this sort of thing - I can't remember the details off the top of my head but it's something like 48 hours to send an acknowledgment email (sort of - we've got your complaint, are looking into it and will get back to you properly by x date) then I think maybe 4 weeks to reply fully. Those numbers might be wrong. I would email the practice, attach the complaint again and if you don't hear within a week escalate to NHSE

www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/about-the-nhs/how-to-complain-to-the-nhs/

The caveat is that if your complaint is about a non-NHS service (e.g. a private letter you have asked for) then the NHS complaints system doesn't apply.

I don't doubt that there are some bad apples in GP land. There are bad apples in every profession. But most of us are doing our best and every thread like this sends another GP over that threshold of leaving the NHS.

sparemonitor · 23/06/2021 06:52

@persnickle sorry forgot to tag you in the post above!

Thisusedtobeaniceneighbourhood · 23/06/2021 06:53

GP care is definitely part of the issue. I have had really good GP care during the pandemic, and econsult is working well in our surgery, but a friend of mine ended up in A&E recently on IV abx for pleurisy and pneumonia because her GP repeatedly refused to see her. When she was eventually allowed to approach the GP, she had to wait in the waiting room for 2 hours and was then told she should be in A&E. An utterly frustrating experience and if she had been seen earlier and treated she wouldn’t have been so poorly.