Friend’s difficult adult children

[PineappleMojito]

My first post here - I’ve joined for some MN wisdom on a situation because I’m not a parent myself and wondering if how I feel is unreasonable, particularly in the eyes of those who do have adult kids.

My friend has kids age 19 and 22. They can be pleasant, especially to visitors, but they treat my friend terribly. The daughter in particular can be very verbally abusive when she doesn’t get what she wants (lifts, money, etc). I’ve seen this first hand. The son is better towards her, but very lazy. My friend, by her own admission, has enabled a lot of this behaviour as she’s a single mum and has overcompensated (she’s said this) by letting them off the hook too much when they were younger and now as adults they do very little for themselves. She’s also very quick to jump in and fight their battles for them - daughter lost her first part time job recently, probably due to not turning up on time and missing shifts, and if she’s been as surly and rude at work as she can be outside it’s no wonder. My friend wanted to go down to the place and demand an explanation! She’s also obsessively nagging her son about his dissertation, fretting about him needing to get a 2:1, and generally not helping that relationship either. So my friend does admit she’s doing things that aren’t helpful.

I have a lot of professional experience with teens and young adults, including as a therapeutic house parent with kids in care, so she does often ask my advice even though I don’t have any kids. I’ve said to her time and time again she needs to set boundaries such as say no to lifts if daughter is rude. She also wanted me to recommend a counsellor for her son, who she says has some issues with anxiety and depression, but I said no, because she’s driving that and not him, and in my experience where parents drive that process and the young adult isn’t on board and hasn’t at least participated in the process, if not done the work of finding a counsellor themselves, it’s utterly pointless.

I’m at the end of my tether now with friend’s complaints about her adult kids, because nothing ever changes. She knows what to do and isn’t doing it and I’ve just run out of sympathy or ideas. AIBU to say I don’t want to hear about this situation/offer advice any more if she asks?

YANBU - friend needs to quit whining about her adult kids and asking my advice if she isn’t going to do anything about it

YABU - I need to continue to let her vent

YANBU

I would tell her that you've given your best advice, it's completely up to her if she follows it, but for the sake of your friendship, it's probably best if she didn't discuss her children with you.
It's outrageously infuriating to be an outsider looking in, with these situations, but she will always choose them over you and if she feels backed into a corner she could block you out.

You are not being unreasonable and it must be very frustrating to listen to your friends complaints. IMO you are also correct re the essential need for boundaries and for the adult children themselves to initiate any changes.
However, your friend is in the midst of a painful process in which she will journey towards a full realisation of who her children are as adults and the extreme outer limits of her own capacity as a mother, emotionally, psychologically and in every way. On the way she will rescue them from all sorts of self inflicted disasters and attempt to justify their abhorrent behaviours.
Her instinct as a Mum will compel her to embark on a variety of ill judged and futile actions in support of her children which will only serve to perpetuate the problems and result in further pain for all involved.
You are right that in her heart of hearts she knows what to do but she's not ready to do it yet and may not be for many years. In the meantime, she uses you as a barometer to check the truth of this. You are perfect in that you have professional knowledge so she trusts your judgment but you are not yourself a parent, so she can reject your judgment when it suits her ( as in when she feels more sympathetically inclined towards her children, for whatever reason. And she will find many).
To add insult to injury, she will bear the brunt of the blame for her children's actions and choices, whether justified or not.
I speak as a mother who has been on this particular journey and who is now untroubled by any delusions with regard to my own two adult children ( aged 27 and 29) who have caused pain and suffering to themselves and all around them for many years and may do so for many years to come, for all I know.
I guess you need to decide whether you have the personal capacity to continue in your role as observer to this unfortunate family dynamic but
I have great compassion for your friend. I have been her.

There's nothing you can do. That family is too set in their ways. She may grumble but that's it. Only thing is to wait until they find other halves and move on.

@IgraineLeFay thank you for your insight. I appreciate knowing more about what it’s like parenting children of this age and the struggles my friend may be having. I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such struggles with your own adult kids, no doubt it’s hard.

Pineapple if I was your friend I think I would be grateful for your input and picking your brains and using your advice
If I was you I think I would be insulted that she doesn't listen and still continues to complain!
Maybe they will have to reach some sort of rock bottom before anything changes?

I would be annoyed too. If she is a good friend though, maybe there is a middle ground? It might be tolerable if you gave her some time to just vent, but without giving any advice. Just replying sorry to hear that/that must be hard/what do you think you might do/I'm not sure what you should do etc. Then after some time change the subject. That way she feels heard and you aren't wasting mental energy trying to solve these problems.

I can’t be bothered with people who moan about self inflicted problems they have no desire to fix. Could you just ask straight up ‘oh what are you going to do about that?’ If she wants to enable it then of course it will continue.

Sounds like you need to set boundaries with your friend. Empathize with the distress she feels, remind her of your previous advice and then redirect. People only change their behavior when it no longer serves them. Sometimes by listening endlessly you just enable them to feel, falsely, that they are trying to resolve the situation when they aren’t.

I'm a teacher and a parent of children who have experienced various difficulties. It's much easier to have a professional relationship with children, to follow guiding principles and maintain boundaries than it is with your own children where your own hopes, dreams, fears and worries are involved.

I think you are being a bit unreasonable in thinking your friend will simply change her whole way of being in response to your advice. People aren't like that. Change is hard. Ok she has asked for advice, but advice doesn't have to be taken. Or maybe she has taken it on but can't put it into practice just yet.

I think your boundaries as a professional and a friend are a bit muddled. You need to be a friend to her. You're not there to solve her problems but to be understanding and supportive, frustrating though that may be for you.

If you find it too difficult, I suggest you try to avoid certain topics with her and direct conversation in different directions.

I don't think you can expect her to change, but I don't think she can expect you to listen to her complain about the same thing over and over without doing anything useful about it, knowing that you don't approve of what she's doing, either. So I think it's fair to say, "Griselda, I love you, but it really pains me when you tell me about what Bratto and Stinkerella are doing. I know you don't want my advice, and at this point, I just feel completely helpless and upset when I think of you being spoken to unkindly, knowing i can't do anything about it. Can we agree not to talk about it so I don't get an ulcer?"

Your friend should have put her foot down years ago. Hopefully in time her kids will grow up but she’s not helped that. I do a lot for my kids, too much really but they are not rude to me and always respectful (16 &13). That’s one area I’ve been firm about

I think you are being a bit unreasonable in thinking your friend will simply change her whole way of being in response to your advice

I don’t think she’ll change her whole way of being - I’m not that naive. It’s not that she’s not taking my advice per se - it’s that nothing changes at all and we keep having the same conversations. If she did something to try and resolve it that was completely different to what I’d said, that would be great. It’s the repeated bending of my (and other friends) ear and still she does nothing about it. I’ve never offered advice unless she’s asked for it either. I’m aware there’s boundaries there between friendship and a professional role, but initially she asked me because she felt at her wits end with it all and I was sympathetic, at the time I believed she wanted to resolve the situation. I realise now she doesn’t/can’t, and have told her I can’t give her advice any more as I simply have nothing new to offer her.

I’m not the only one out of my friend group who has reached the end of their tether with this, even those who have kids themselves are pulling their hair out with it because we’re all sat there going “just use the word ‘no’” and it’s the one thing she seems unable to do.

Your friend isn't after your professional advice she is looking for support from her friend. You seem to think you are some kind of gatekeeper. Eg she wanted a therapist recommendation and you told her no. Why? Why does it matter to you if your friend tries to arrange therapy for her son and he either goes and its no help or he ends up not going? I get that you find her way of dealing annoying but you sound a bit of a know all who has decided its her own fault. Yes avoid talking about it but you seem to be making a point of not offering her any advice or support anymore.

@Peoniesandpeaches

Sounds like you need to set boundaries with your friend. Empathize with the distress she feels, remind her of your previous advice and then redirect. People only change their behavior when it no longer serves them. Sometimes by listening endlessly you just enable them to feel, falsely, that they are trying to resolve the situation when they aren’t.

Exactly this. I understand what @Amotherlife is saying about being understanding and supportive as a friend, but this does have its limits in certain situations. She had an awful time at work a few years back when they were trying to discipline/possibly sack her for sickness absences she just couldn’t help, she had a rotten time and it was awful. I absolutely was supportive with that, there was nothing she could do about it except grit her teeth and get through it. I was always very much “yeah, rant away, fair enough”. In this situation though, I just don’t think her ranting endlessly about it is helping. It feels enabling.

She’s asking for your advice because it means you both spend longer talking about her favourite topic, not because she actually intends to follow your advice.

You need to reframe this in your head as her wanting to vent, even if she is asking you what you would suggest (you know she isn’t planning to follow your advice). Spend a lot of time validating how hard this is for her. No advice at all. Use coaching techniques - ask her what she is planning to do about it, if she has any ideas that might help, and encourage her to try her own ideas out.

It is annoying, and I would definitely stop her from dominating every meet-up with this, but it’s obviously an issue that is important to her, and as her friend you are kind of stuck listening to it.

Your friend isn't after your professional advice
She asked for it, specifically. I gave it.

You seem to think you are some kind of gatekeeper. Eg she wanted a therapist recommendation and you told her no. Why? Why does it matter to you if your friend tries to arrange therapy for her son and he either goes and its no help or he ends up not going?

See above. She asked for my professional advice, I gave it. In my practice, if approached by family members seeking help for another adult, I always ask that the prospective patient approaches me themselves. If the prospective patient is doing nothing to participate in the process, that says to me that a) they don’t really want it and b) it’s the parent, not the child, who needs it. Why would I waste a colleague’s time, or worse, piss off a colleague by landing them with a nightmare situation, as my friend would DEFINITELY be one of those parents who pushes the boundaries, rings up a lot, asking for information or trying to direct the therapy (and did so with her son’s university counsellor and learning mentor, so she has previous on that). It’s nothing to me if she finds a counsellor on a directory and tries to get him to go, that’s her own business. But I’m not being brought into it. Nothing to do with gatekeeping and everything to do with protecting myself from repercussions.

I get that you find her way of dealing annoying but you sound a bit of a know all who has decided its her own fault

She’s said herself it’s her own fault because she’s been too lax and overcompensated, so that’s not my judgement. The whole question of whether it’s “her fault” or not doesn’t really matter. Even though she can be overinvolved and yes, her way of dealing can be annoying, I hate seeing her treated badly, my friend is a good egg with a heart of gold, and whether or not she’s been too lax in the past her kids are adults and are making bad choices in how they treat their mum. She doesn’t deserve it. If anyone needs the counselling it’s her, as I wish she’d come see that she’s worth more than being yelled and sworn at on a daily basis and having no help in the house. I wish she’d spend the resources on herself for once instead of pouring it down the drain of her kidult children who at this stage in their lives seem to think they’re entitled to treat her like shit.