To think ‘working breeds’ just aren’t..?

[TheDiddlyGang]

I’ve been reading the husky thread going and so much talk of them being ‘working dogs’ and needing sledding and other work.

But the vast majority of ‘working breeds’ now just aren’t are they?

Labradors and spaniels have a severe and obvious work/show split and it is starting in border collies too but setters now are almost exclusively show bred, as are beagles and basset hounds and huskies and malamutes.

If you look at the working sled dogs in cold countries they don’t look anything like the Huskies and Malamutes being bred here?
The difference in appearance is shocking, they don’t look at all similar..?

The only dogs that still seem to be largely bred for working and therefore genuine ‘working breeds’ seem to me to be border collies (though this is changing), greyhounds, lurchers, Patterdale terriers and some of the livestock guardians.

All the other breeds seem to have been contaminated by the Kennel Club, bred to a visual ‘standard’ and never worked a day in their lives.

So AIBU to say that actually, breeds like huskies, border collies, jack russells, German Shepherds, malamutes etc arent ‘working breeds’ at all anymore.
They are active, intelligent breeds but they aren’t ‘working breeds’?

I didn’t mean to lump collies in there at the bottom as they are still largely bred to work.

Like you said it depends on what line you are getting them from. A working line German shepherd is miles away from a show line one in temperament and endurance. Try to keep my working line shepherd anywhere other than the middle of the countryside like we do and you would run into major destructive behaviour and behavioural issues. A show line shepherd would probably be fine.

I think it's ok for there to be a split, we want dogs for different things. I don't really want dogs bred for the show ring, I think it dilutes the breed but if others want a collie that looks pretty and doesn't have them running miles a day I prefer they get a show line to making a work g line dog try to fit into an unsuitable lifestyle

Shepherd's and malinois are still used as working dogs for the police. They wouldn't use the crufts kind though, they're not fit for purpose.

I think you are looking at how they are now rather than how breeders spent hundreds of years selctively breeding the breed for a job of work.

That and whilst you may not use them as working dogs, your friends my not use them as working dogs, many of those you have listed are used every day to do the job of work they were bred for.

I live in a small market town and in my street alone there is a Jack that is used regularly for pest control, 2 collies that work sheep (owner is a shepherdess), 3 guide dogs/companion dogs and a couple of ex police dogs, 1 is a sniffer dog.

Even my 'gentlemans posing dog' works in other parts of the world where the breed's terrier traits and arge size are used by game wardens and farmers for guarding and protection.

The prevalence fof house dogs doesn't really change the underlying use of many of the working breeds. Indeed many of those dogs you see wandering round town as pets are working dogs - as with the 2 mountain rescue dogs owned by my ex boss.

@Chiwi

Shepherd's and malinois are still used as working dogs for the police. They wouldn't use the crufts kind though, they're not fit for purpose.

Agree chiwi there's a world of difference between the two. Not to forget lots of people still doing IPO and security work with good working line shepherds. I don't think people realise how big of a working side there is in the breed until they look into these things

True and good point about German and Belgian shepherds, but what about Beagles and huskies?

Two breeds MN is forever saying about needing ‘work’ and being ‘working breeds’

But working huskies look nothing like the huskies available here and working beagles, I believe there are only a couple of working beagle packs in the UK and pretty much all pet beagles are not from working lines?

Beagles round here are run as a scent pack. A few of my ex students are the runners/scent layers and their dogs/puppies are regularly picked up for training as sniffer dogs in agricultural and food import/exports.

"Working" behaviours have been bred into these dogs over generations now and don't just disappear because a husky lives in a city flat rather out in the wilds of Siberia. They will still instinctively try to pull (just they're now pulling whoever is on the other end of the lead rather than a sled several times heavier than itself) a collie will still nip at the heels and try to "herd", spaniels are still easily distracted by scents, retrievers still love to, um, retrieve...

Even dogs from non working lines will still have these instincts in them, even if they are not as pronounced.

I think you’re confusing their heritage with what people have decided to do with them.

Working breeds are definitely more demanding and more active and need an active lifestyle. They have busy brains.

Spaniels have working and show dogs - they’re very different. It’s not just lines - they’ve been bred like that for generations and have differing needs.

People might chose to have them as pets but that doesn’t remove their natural desire to work and energy levels. Hence so many struggle with them. Especially huskies.

There’s some fat huskies about - working huskies tend to be leaner.

I had a husky and he absolutely needed to run. They become destructive quite quickly if they’re not adequately exercised.

I don't know a lot about huskies really except they don't really seem very fit for normal family life. I had a neighbor who used a beagle for scent tracking, he did private work. No idea how successful they are.
But I have a whippet, he was I guess bred for hare coursing but he has never seen a hare in his life. I know people do course them still,bi don't think there is much difference in those lines? I could be wrong!

Things change, I doubt if my bulldog could take down a bull, however he'd probably have a good go at a badger

There are plenty of working bred Siberian huskies in the UK and a sled dog racing community to go with them. Pick the right judge and they can still be successful in the show ring too.

You're missing the fact that working breeds have been bred to promote certain traits. Herding, running , hunting,chasing, retrieving, guarding.

Many of those dogs, even though they don't have work, still have that trait hardwired in their DNA ( the long eyesight, hearing, intelligence, scent, the physique, the stamina, the temperament and mental obsessions) to some degree. Hard to tell in a pup; but by age two when they reach maturity all is revealed.

If they have it strongly, it may prove very difficult for domestic pet owners to give that dog an appropriate energy outlet for his natural instincts ( to bark a warning, chase, hunt, scent-seek, herd, guard, run for miles every day). He's going to do it anyway.

It's sometimes possible to redirect a working breed's natural trait into modern work ( scent -hunters taught to find drugs instead of game birds. Spaniels taught to retrieve useful items to a disabled owners. ) but they still need to be occupied and busy. A bored, frustrated underemployed dog will be unhappy ( and possibly, that comes out as aggression, destructiveness, neurotic and obsessive behaviours).

Obviously depends on the line you obtain the puppy from. Mine, as mentioned on the other thread, were working bred, FtCH galore in the pedigree (spaniel breed). Even if not a working line, I’d expect similar traits in a show type, the instinct is still there, but the dog may well be heavier and unused to working.

Ours is most definitely bred and trained as a working setter, with a huge prey drive and ability to set for hours on end. It depends entirely on lineage. She looks very different to a show setter.

Ours is one of the Upperwood's who breed both show setters and working setters but very much differentiate between the two.

www.upperwoodsetters.com/show-english-setters.html

You don't see many, as they are a vulnerable breed - although I can't imagine why as htey are such lovely natured dogs.

retrievers still love to, um, retrieve...

As a child we found that out when we got a golden retriever who retrieved everything, boxes of matches, underwear, toys...

As others have said the instincts are still there. I knew someone who looked after his friend's border collie, the dog would not settle if the humans were not in the same room and would run round trying to heard them.

Slight tangent but Beagles have an interesting history with similar looking small hounds seen as far back as ancient Greece and Rome. During the 16th century pocket Beagles were popular and the tiny Beagles were lapdogs at the court of Elizabeth I, as well as hunting dogs, later they were bred to the standards we know today.

YABU. Even my labradoodle can’t escape his “roots”, and he certainly doesn’t look like a working dog. He has an inbuilt desire to retrieve fluffy items. Hence we have a pile of the kids cuddly toys in the living room from his “retrieving” from their bedrooms. Can run for miles and miles, and wants to jump in all the water everywhere. Can’t imagine what it would be like with a husky that has that run/pull desire.

We have a springer from a show line. It's obvious sometimes that he was bred for looks rather than brains!
However, the second he spots a bird of any description the gun dog instincts come flooding out. Which backfired the first time he met a swan....

I've got a working cocker and I'm sure if I put a disguise on him when we were out it would still be pretty easy to identify his roots.

Nose to the ground, sniffing his way to the nearest thicket and flushing all the birds out, collecting any items we might see lying around...

YABU.

I have a beagle. He may be a pet, but that working instinct is strong as anything. Given the chance, he will disappear after his "quarry" and bay to me from the other side of the woods or field to summon me to him - just as he'd do in a hunting pack. I've never once trained him to do that.

I'm also a dog walker and walk all sorts of breeds - they all, without exception, will instinctually do what they were bred to do.

I've certainly seen husky chariot races in this country. I'm assuming those are working dogs.

My greyhound looks at me with utter disgust when I suggest her doing anything "work" related - apparently, despite her long racing career, she was bred to lie upside down on the sofa farting... but she still has a bonkers chase drive that's been bred into her line from like the 1800s (racing greyhounds do tend to have very clearly tracked back pedigrees and meeting other hound owners tends to be a "ok how are these two related" session) if anything's small furry and moving, or carrying food.

I do watch her and wonder how the fuck they got anything passing for physical exertion out of her though! I think there IS a distinction between show bred and working bred greyhounds - but because the ones you see out and about tend to be rejects or retirees of the racing industry - it's not as severe a contrast (from the Kennel Club site: The Greyhound seen in the show ring is larger and heavier than the racing track greyhound. The sport of racing greyhounds was first held on an oval racetrack in 1926.)

School I'm working at at the moment have a working-lines Labrador and it's completely unrecognisable from the fat pedigree ones you see waddling around the local park!

I think it largely depends on where you live too. Around where I live the working dogs work because agriculture, pest control and country sports are a large part of the community.