Too much freedom when very young leads to low level misbehaviour...

[Homeontherangeuk]

Just a thought... We live in a very nice estate, it's very large. Our road is full of kids the same age as my dc 7 & 10... My kids rarely play out as they are very busy with activities, school & love to read/play together in the garden etc in downtime or have school friends in the garden. I'm not a fan of them playing on the road as I can't supervise & tbh don't approve of what I see... Tonight the road is full of kids, it's bucketing down, we've had 3 knock & runs plus 2 kids standing outside our house screaming my dc names... The kids are out from morning til night in term time & were out mixing the whole time during covid restrictions... They have so much freedom & very little bounderies... The families of all are very nice & we'll to but are all working from home at the minute..
My dc play out occasionally but the last time they came in as they didn't want to play "chicken" which was dancing behind any car that was reversing into it's driveway....
Aibu to think that too much freedom leads to low level delinquency? I posted about the chicken in the neighbourhood whatsapp group & also the knock & runs (I didnt mention the kids names) ... I got flamed by the majority of the group who agreed "kids are kids", "they have had a hard year" & "the kids in this estate are angels compared to most".... I am now also "that mother" on the road for pointing out my observations...

Agree with @mercuree. There's a group of kids of a similar age who play out around here, they live within about three streets and roam fairly freely but I think there's an unspoken rule that if a parent realises they're closest to their house they keep an eye out. They are incredibly well behaved, will leap out of the way if they're blocking the path. But you also here them having terribly inane conversations they probably wouldn't in front of their parents, and figuring out who has fallen out with who this week.

Our neighbour described being basically locked out of the house from morning till night when she was a child: four kids, two bedrooms, the kids have to be out playing. Its certainly not new.

I think being overscheduled without being able to learn how to mediate the crap other kids get up to when its fairly low stakes does actually set them up to fail more when they're older. I hung out with a 'bad influence' at eleven, who was actually great (but yes got up to more than she should have - but again, not disrespectful) but I totally learnt how to say no, I'm not trying a cigarette, no I don't want to meet up with those boys, when I was eleven. Which meant when it came up again more seriously when I was 13, 14, and actually more hormonal and unsure, I had practice of saying no to situations that made me uncomfortable and realising the world didn't end.

I think in your example, the parents are disinterested. But if you don't have disinterested parents, I think less structure and as much freedom as you can responsibly give leads to the best outcome.

As we were coming into the estate kids as young as 6 were running across the road infront of the car.

I mean, we did this a lot as children playing kerby. Not sure if that's a UK wide game but it involves running across the road a lot as well as standing in the middle. None of us ever got hit by a car because they all crawled.

You said the kids are doing it deliberately but I feel like if you know kids are playing out, or in a housing estate at a time when you suspect it, why aren't you crawling? What damage are you going to do to a child if you're crawling by them?

It really annoys me drivers who think because the limit is 20, they can do 20. (Not at all saying that is you!). But they exist.

Another serious problem is that certainly in my area (big enough for 4 primary schools, so not just one little housing estate) the emphasis for all redevelopment has been on shared spaces. At the local school "there are no pavements and no roads". Except, there clearly are roads because cars can drive there, and the cars are doing 20mph because that is the speed limit! What they don't have is kerbs or safe spaces for children to walk. It's an absolute nightmare and is supposed to make cars yield to pedestrians but actually all it does is make things extremely unsafe for vulnerable pedestrians.

The implementation of shared spaces is terrible (because there isn't that culture here like there is in Europe and because they didn't bother to change the speed limits)... but the principal is extremely solid in my opinion.

I think I was pissed off also as it was bucketing rain, the kids shouting outside my window were drenched with no proper clothing on.. I thought we'd get at least one night's peace with the rain! There's no way I'd want my dc out in that rain but that's just me....

I don’t think it’s the freedom; I think it’s the lack of parenting/supervision/boundaries. I remember doing the knock snd run game and I also remember getting into a lot of trouble for it which really is the natural order of things when you’re a kid so you learn.
The chicken thing though would infuriate me; I live on an estate where kids are often playing and it makes me nervous enough even though they all move when a car comes so if they were deliberately doing it I’d be telling them what I think.
Kids need boundaries and to learn that the stupid things they do (which is part of being a kid) aren’t ok

The rain won’t make you melt. Honestly.

As for the behaviour, I would have pointed out on the WhatsApp that you were worried that a kid would be hit by a car but left it at that.

Those kids, chicken aside, are having the time of their lives and will have some great memories. I wish my dcs would have the same - sadly covid has put paid to hanging out as we don’t live on an estate. Hoping it will happen as things relax.

Life is too short to timetable and control the fuck out of it.

I did think some of the previous posters whose dc play out but they are confident they would be impeccably behaved at all times despite no supervision may be being a little naive 😁

um, our grandparents had huge amounts of freedom from young age. Did they turn into mostly hooligans?

Exactly! My DMs generation were out of the house from dawn til dusk. It’s shoddy parenting, not the freedom.

I would say it's lack of consequences than freedom tbh

I think it depends on the child too. I have one with an innate sense of responsibility and I know she will walk away from trouble. I have another who is impulsive and will do anything for attention. I gave him more freedom after lockdown as I felt bad for him. I got a complaint from another parent about his behaviour. He lost his privileges. I think freedom is good for children but only if they are not being a nuisance to anyone else.

@ragged

um, our grandparents had huge amounts of freedom from young age. Did they turn into mostly hooligans?

Compare to modern kids, not allowed to go to a shop by selves before age 12.

I have to agree with this.

When I was 6YO and my brother was 9YO we used to play out all day on the road. My DM couldn't even use use excuse of WFH. We are both responsible, never been in any kind of trouble adults holding down jobs.

My DC are a similar age now. They don't like playing out in the street and in someone ways I feel like they are missing out.

I'm all for getting kids off screens, but the 'kids are angels compared to others' made me laugh, I doubt it

@MsTSwift

I did think some of the previous posters whose dc play out but they are confident they would be impeccably behaved at all times despite no supervision may be being a little naive 😁

Just a bit

I don’t really like kids ‘playing out.’ I do see there are advantages and there are problems with a micromanaged childhood.

My parents, and especially my dad, encouraged my brother and I to be fearless, to wander the countryside and to ‘play out.’ It did make us both tremendously independent but I actually shudder when I look back. I nearly drowned when I was about eight because he let us take a boat on the open sea, I had no end of creepy men from a very young age, including nearly being shoved in a van, I played on railway lines and rubbish dumps and alone in woods as it went dark.

I played with other children too and I am fairly sure there are studies confirming this, that children do things in large groups they wouldn’t in smaller ones. I remember some older boys - maybe year 8 - surrounding me and forcing me to remove my trousers and underwear. It was horrendous. And I remember being bullied and not even really understanding what was happening.

I know people will read this and think that’s an extreme example and it isn’t. I think children do need adult supervision to help them manage relationships and to keep them safe.

I don't think it's the freedom in itself that's the problem. It's the lack of clear boundaries. Being free to play without adult supervision can be fine, provided the kids know what behaviour is and isn't ok. Failure to explain and reinforce what behaviour is and isn't ok is what is causing the problem. You would hope that as kids get older they internalise the boundaries so they can play safely without supervision.

You’re absolutely correct. It’s that combined with crap parenting. We live in a small village and all the trouble happens when the teenagers from the local comp start hanging around together after school. I definitely do not want my children to be part of that. I want them to use their evenings constructively, not be dossing aimlessly outside the spar shop That was one of our reasons for spending every penny sending them to private school. They have so many clubs and societies on in the evenings that my children will have much better things to do than stand on street corners in the rain.

We used to play out all day as kids and would only go home occasionally for meals, this was long before mobile phones. We did however know that if we misbehaved or annoyed the neighbours there would be hell to pay.

You see some parents now watching their kids do something they shouldn’t and all they do is say “don’t do that darling” in a pathetic, drippy voice which said brat ignores. Parent FFS you feeble idiot.

Playing out unsupervised is not great in my opinion.

I did it as a child and was unlucky to encounter an opportunist paedophile who was just out there looking for a couple of 8 year old kids who didn't have adult supervision.

My own 3 DC have never been allowed to play out on the streets. They are now young adults, successful university students, happy, confident, well-balanced.

They also have lots of skills (music, sports etc.) learned from the organized activities of their childhood.

Also, I had a freerange childhood. I got up to all sorts when egged on my other kids. Had my parents known they would have gone mental but they never found out and would be saying ‘my child would never do that’ on this thread.

I also saw many blokes flashing and wanking, was tried to be pulled into a van, played on the railway line, got into fights, was bullied and was endlessly exposed to alcohol, drugs and sex. My parents had absolutely no clue.

Also naive to think if your dc are at private school they won’t hang about as teens 😁. The kids from the grandest local schools in our small city are by far the worst behaved in our local teen hang out spots! I advise dd to avoid them though my 14 year old dd and her friends thankfully too timid to go yet.

Like everything it’s a balance. Mine do sports and activities but it’s important for teens to have some hang out time with their mates. Slightly sad to spend your whole teen years plugging away at the violin.

@MadMadMadamMim

I don't think too much freedom leads to delinquency.

I think piss poor parenting, no expectations and a failure to set a proper example does.

My children had plenty of freedom. They also absolutely knew how to behave and would not have dreamed of carrying on like this.

Exactly this. We had a lot of freedom, and we did try to push the boundaries, but we were always brought sharply back in. Neighbours were more than happy to grass us up to parents if we were a nuisance! The problem won't be an excess of freedom, but a general lack of parenting.

It's very frustrating, essentially the kids have the run of the estate... Like I said the dc have fantastic friends on the road they do play with with they can but like my dc these kids are also busy with school activities so the road isn't there life so to speak.... Dc will be going to secondary half an hour away, their choice & I'm glad as already teenagers from the local schools are hanging around corners, outside shops & it's not what I want for mine in their teenage years...

@MsTSwift

Also naive to think if your dc are at private school they won’t hang about as teens 😁. The kids from the grandest local schools in our small city are by far the worst behaved in our local teen hang out spots! I advise dd to avoid them though my 14 year old dd and her friends thankfully too timid to go yet.

Not the case round here I can assure you. The only teens causing trouble on the streets are from the local comp and the local comp does nothing about it even when it’s reported to them. The private school is surrounded by rolling countryside with some children living an hour away. Most stay at school until 6 or 7pm to socialise or take part in activities and enrichment. They are allowed to have tea there any evening they wish which is a very informal affair so the children love it. If a group of them did manage to meet up outside of school and cause havoc then they would absolutely be hunted down by the school and disciplined. I’ll take a punt on the private school after looking at the outcomes for the children going there compared to the local comp thanks.

It depends a lot on where you live as well tbh. I grew up in a very safe, very affluent village in the home counties and never saw any of the dodgy stuff described by other posters, or kids doing anything dangerous or awful.

I now live in a semi-rural village in the NW. Also feels very safe. 20 mph speed limit, little traffic. My dc only hang out with their friends, who are all nice well-behaved kids. They wouldn't get involved in any bad behaviour.

Call me naïve if you like,MsTSwift, but I've taught in secondary schools for over 20 years, so I assure you I'm certainly under no illusions about how many kids behave!

I think you're right to a certain degree, for a want of a better mn description our estate is "MC & leafy", considered one of the most upmarket locally even though it is large...

Ha I also assume mine would be well behaved both are “good” girls but would never be complacent enough to be absolutely sure 😁.

Anecdotally the private school teens I met as a teen (rural comp) were way way more advanced on the sex and drugs front than we were. So no sorry still not buying that private schools equal good behaviour 😁