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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Surrogacy and Covid Vaccine

41 replies

OhHolyJesus · 25/05/2021 09:49

Whatever your thoughts are on the COVID vaccine, or vaccines in general, is it ever ok to make medical decisions for the woman who is carrying your baby? If a woman is if sound mind and we are to believe she has body autonomy as a surrogate mother, should the person or people who have their genetic child inside her be the ones calling the shots and for this to be made legal via a 'contract' that is unenforceable in the U.K.?

"The anxiety around the potential harm the vaccine can do to a baby in the womb has led to surrogacy contracts being amended to ensure that intended parents can make medical decisions for the surrogate, and in some cases has led to the breakdown of surrogacy teams who cannot agree on whether to vaccinate or not."

https://www.bionews.org.uk/page_156655

OP posts:
Annasgirl · 25/05/2021 15:15

Well cases like this should (note the should, I don't really have much faith in people's critical thinking skills anymore) make people go "oh, of course, that is another reason why Surrogacy (of all kinds) should be illegal.

But I won't hold my breath.

In fact, I await the usual "I'm a surrogate for my friend, who sadly cannot have a child, and it is the most wonderful, life affirming gift". posse to turn up to tell us we are over-reacting.

WeRoarSometimes · 25/05/2021 15:40

Thanks for sharing all this. Feel like I've missed loads since last being on the board.

The safeguarding leads I come across tell me that their concerns about safeguarding of pregnant women where there is a surrogacy arrangement (commercial or otherwise) are falling on deaf ears.
The medical profession is facing pushback by those within aligning rights to use a surrogate mum as an extension of rights for gay men.

Local authority safeguarding leads are toothless if the NHS can't/won't refer pregnant women to them so that social workers can assess whar safeguarding risks there are to the health of pregnant women.
Pregnant women have no one to advocate for them whilst commissioning parents (often couples), with access to lawyers, experts, and a lot of money are determined to control what the surrogate mum can and cannot do to her own body.

Women are so much more than our organs, and yet surrogacy reduces us to the capacity of our wombs.

PastaLaVistaBBY · 25/05/2021 16:35

It’s absolutely not ok. You can’t contract out of bodily autonomy - and any attempts to make such a contract legally enforceable are, in my view, immoral. Surrogacy is hugely problematic for many reasons and this is an obvious example of one of them.

IcedPurple · 25/05/2021 17:05

@CrazyNeighbour

In the link the terms “teams” and “we” are sooo sanitizing. It isn’t a team, and her body is not communal property.
All part of the twee language used around surrogacy. "Tummy mummy", "surrogacy journey" and my favourite, "surrobub". I think you mean a baby. Ugh.
FannyCann · 26/05/2021 08:21

I think Commissioning Parents expecting to control the process and take ownership of the baby they are paying for is not just common but the norm.

As this woman found out when she offered to be a surrogate mother for her best friends.

"Both parents put pressure on me about how and where I would give birth. I had to be very assertive to make it clear that it was my body, and that the physiological process of birth works best when the mother feels completely safe and births in the way she is most comfortable with. I had to be very clear that the decision making lay with me alone.
I felt that they believed that to some extent they ‘owned’ me and my uterus, and that they ‘deserved’ to direct the birth because they saw the babies as ‘theirs.’"

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

FannyCann · 26/05/2021 23:43

That is very interesting @WeRoarSometimes Thanks for that update.
I've been wondering where safeguarding is on all this. Also for the baby. I just can't wrap my mind around that a couple (or singleton) can rock up and say "we are the parents" and then a maternity hospital just hand over the baby and wave them off! Obviously presumably there must be a bit of paperwork or something signed by the surrogate mother but as far as I can work out it's pretty minimal.

(I think you posted to me on the other thread that's active btw - I assume you meant the link I shared on this thread.)

ViciousJackdaw · 27/05/2021 00:51

It's all about the hardship for the commissioning parent/s and not about the 'pregnancy journey'

Hardship for the 'commissioning parents'? Fucks sake, what about the vessel, oops, incubator, sorry, I mean pregnant woman? She's the one incurring the hardship. Not someone who thinks they can buy in something they want (not need) with no regard for the birth mother or indeed the resulting child.

FannyCann · 11/07/2021 10:13

@WeRoarSometimes I have sent you a pm. X

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 11/07/2021 10:15

Fucking hell,it gets more like Handmaid's Tale every minute.

Viviennemary · 11/07/2021 10:16

Its a pretty strange business in the first place. So I don't think you can apply ethics to something that is so fundamentally wrong.

DelphiniumBlue · 11/07/2021 12:39

I don't know enough about this, but what checks are done on the receiving parents of a baby born by surrogacy?
An earlier poster talked about human trafficking.. I'm wondering is it treated like adoption, where there are checks, or is it literally just contractual? If, for example, the receiving parents turned out to be negligent or abusive, what is in place to protect the baby, other than usual social services being involved? Does the birthing parent retain any responsibility? Can they really just hand over a baby and say they are no longer responsible for it? Could the baby sue if it all goes horribly wrong?
Just airing some of my concerns. I know what Ithink should be the case, but don't know what protection is actually in place.

WeRoarSometimes · 11/07/2021 15:20

@DelphiniumBlue
The level of checks undertaken is surprisingly low at least in England/Wales.
Newborn babies have their routine medical checks after birth, before they can be discharged from hospital (if born in a hospital).

Children's social care teams are not involved for any special arrangement if baby is born of a surrogacy arrangement. The NHS doesn't refer cases in this way or at least that I know of. Many commissioning parents will be insisting on private medical care, particularly when IVF is involved. And so, in a way surrogate mums would be invisible to any authority where safeguarding is a concern.

Any assessments for the court process are 'light touch' and advertised as such by the surrogacy agencies and their fertility experts.

The counter-argument for a higher level of involvement is that the baby has a DNA connection to the commissioning parents and child protection should not be an issue for a child.

I compare this to step-parent adoptions when a child is already living with one birth parent (DNA connection) and their husband/wife. And yet unlike surrogacy, there is a full adoption assessment. It involves, several meetings with a social worker, assessment of risk, considering the child's future welfare etc. It can cost many thousands of pounds for the parent and the step-parent, plus court costs.

And yet, for commissioning parents, well, let's just say it's different.

WeRoarSometimes · 11/07/2021 15:27

@FannyCann
Part of the reason that the commissioning parents and surrogacy agencies are advocating for laws to be relaxed, sorry updated, is so that commissioning parents feel they have the right to leave hospital with their baby, not the birth mum. Assuming baby is born in hospital and not a home birth.

At the moment, babies are discharged to the birth mum plus partner or family member, unless there in involvement with social workers.
This can then lead to the car-park exchange with commissioning parents. Commissioning parents do not generally want the birth mum in their home or other private space for a baby handover, I imagine.

I keep coming back to it. This is a service for adults who can pay poorer women to RISK her life for their desires.

whymewhyme · 11/07/2021 15:38

Wow...ofcourse not.

OhHolyJesus · 05/05/2022 13:19

There is a 'shortage' of women available to be 'surrogates' in the US apparently and a suggestion that a financial incentive, a bonus, be paid to any woman willing to get vaccinated.

From the NYT

Text of this article:
"Charlie Lee and his husband want to have a baby. But they are facing a major hurdle: They have 12 viable embryos, but no one to carry one.
The couple has spent a little over a year searching for a surrogate. They were originally told by their surrogacy agency that they would be matched with one in six months at the most. That was in January 2021; 15 months later, they are still waiting.
Before the pandemic, surrogate mothers were typically paid about $35,000 (fees are unregulated and usually determined by the surrogates and their agencies, if they work with one) and wait times for a match tended to be about three to six months.
Now, Mr. Lee, 31, and his husband, who conceived their embryos using donor eggs, have increased their offer to $50,000 plus medical fees and other compensation, such as maternity clothing and transportation costs.
“We are anxious and we are just waiting,” said Mr. Lee, who lives in Madison, Wis., and is a student in an M.B.A. program. “There’s nothing else I can do at this point,” he said.
Mr. Lee and his husband are contending with the same issue as thousands of other aspiring parents — most often same-sex couples or couples who are facing fertility issues — in the United States: an approximately 60 percent decrease in potential surrogates, according to the 10 agencies The New York Times spoke to, along with doubled wait times and significantly higher fees.
According to Jeff Hu, a founder and the director of Surrogate First in Los Angeles, Covid-19 vaccination is one issue spurring the surrogacy shortage. A number of potential surrogates, Mr. Hu said, don’t want to get vaccinated. Many intended parents, however, are requiring their surrogates to, Mr. Hu said, as research shows a mother will pass the antibodies to the babies in utero. Additionally, recent studies show that Covid poses many risks to the pregnancy itself.
“You can see where there will be a disconnect in the matching market,” Mr. Hu said. “There are now terms in the legal contract about vaccination,” he added, as well as certain Covid protocols, such as agreeing “to not attend large groups or large public gatherings” for the entirety of their pregnancy.
Vaccine disagreements are only one issue. Many surrogates are themselves mothers, and — like so many of us — have been struggling with pandemic parenting and all it entails, including erratic child care.
Consequently, many potential surrogates — many of whom are military wives who are unemployed and use surrogacy to boost the family’s income — are reluctant to make any other commitments at the moment, said Dr. Deepika Garg, an assistant professor of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive sciences at Yale University School of Medicine. (In other words, they are exhausted.)
And, Dr. Garg said, surrogacy contracts require a commitment of nine months to a year, and this limits travel. As travel bookings pick back up, many surrogates may be hesitant to continue restricting their travel after two years of various lockdowns.
Surrogacy is also often prohibitively expensive, which is among the reasons some American couples turn to surrogates abroad, often for significantly lower fees. But while some surrogates are available abroad, the process can be very complicated, and may take many months, including preparing an egg retrieval, undergoing fertility treatments, transferring an embryo and confirming a healthy pregnancy.
Furthermore, many foreign countries ban surrogacy arrangements with same-sex couples. As a result, having a surrogate who lives closer to home is preferable — or the only option — for some.
And nowhere has the challenge of international surrogacy been highlighted more than currently in Ukraine, which allows foreign surrogacy arrangements and which, by some estimates, is the largest surrogate hub in the world. The war there has created a gut-wrenching crisis: terrified, pregnant surrogates in fear for their safety and parents unable to reach their newborns. The Times recently reported on nearly two dozen surrogate-born babies in hiding with nannies in a Kyiv basement, their fate unknown.
For American surrogates working with parents abroad, there can also be extreme challenges. Mirjam Johns, 37, an intake coordinator at Surrogate First, was a surrogate for a single mother who lives in China, where surrogacy is illegal — though Chinese citizens may hire foreign surrogates legally. The baby girl was born on Jan. 27, 2021.
The pregnancy went smoothly; it was only after Ms. Johns, who lives in Ludowici, Ga., gave birth that the real Covid complications occurred. Because of the pandemic, a partial shutdown at U.S. passport services and worker shortages, the necessary paperwork from the Chinese Embassy to get the baby to her mother was delayed, Ms. Johns said. Ms. Johns was given full power of attorney over the child so she could take her home from the hospital. Then, Ms. Johns applied for the baby’s passport, and then needed to file for a Chinese visa, as the baby couldn’t get a Chinese passport until physically arriving in China.
Ms. Johns ended up taking care of the baby for seven months, until the baby could be with her mother. Ms. Johns took the child to all her pediatrician appointments — and even took her along on two vacations with her husband and three sons: to a mountain getaway in Helen, Ga., and, a few months later, on a vacation in Atlanta.
“She went everywhere I did,” Ms. Johns said. “We just included her as if she was ours. It was the best experience.” When the paperwork was finally completed and the baby was cleared to leave the United States, a nanny whom the intended mother hired took her to China, where the newborn and the nanny tested positive for Covid. (Ms. Johns, who is vaccinated, and her family were negative.)
The baby continued to test positive for six weeks. Once she finally tested negative, she was released back into mandatory quarantine in Shanghai and 10 days later, her mother (the father is a sperm donor) was allowed to pick up her daughter. This was in October 2021, nine months after the child was born.
“I cried, but I was happy she got to finally go home and meet her mom,” Ms. Johns said. “But of course it was hard to watch her leave.”
Eran Amir, right, and his husband, Mike Gowen, have used surrogates twice and are now beginning their third process with one.
There is intense demand to recruit more surrogates, said Eran Amir, 44, the founder of GoStork, a fertility marketplace where intended parents may find, compare and connect with fertility providers, including surrogacy agencies.
He started the agency so others could have more transparency about the surrogacy process.
Mr. Amir and his husband, Mike Gowen, have used surrogates twice and are now beginning their third process with one. They paid about $200,000 total for their first surrogacy in 2017: $35,000 for egg donor screening fees, an egg donation, egg donor insurance, the egg donor agency fee, travel expenses and legal fees; $35,000 for I.V.F., which included the egg retrieval, creating the embryos and transferring the embryo; and more than $120,000 for the surrogacy process, which included a $35,000 compensation for the surrogate, plus the surrogate agency fee, surrogate insurance, legal fees, screening, travel expenses and other miscellaneous fees. The second time, in September 2020, they paid $150,000, using a different agency.
Mr. Amir, who lives in New Haven, Conn., said his relationship with his surrogates has always been very important to him. “We FaceTime a lot and talked on the phone as much as we could,” he said. “But because of distance” — the first surrogate lived in Ohio; the second in Tennessee — “and Covid on the second journey, we only met for the first time in person when our babies were born.” And because surrogacy is not allowed for same-sex couples in many foreign countries that otherwise allow it, helping a gay couple is a calling for some.
Shea Eschman, a photographer who lives in Yukon, Okla., is due July 4 with twins for a gay couple who live in Italy. Ms. Eschman, who has a 4-year-old daughter, had spent time on social media talking to others about potential surrogacy when she was having trouble conceiving her daughter. Now, she said, she wants to help people who aren’t able to have kids on their own.
“I’m excited to give them their dream family,” Ms. Eschman said. “They wanted twins, and it’s exactly what they are getting.”
Ms. Eschman, 31, who is vaccinated but got Covid during this pregnancy, was matched with the couple in October, and said this pairing was a “cherry on top,” as she, herself, is gay. She speaks to the intended fathers on a regular basis, and declined to disclose how much she is being paid.
Benevolent motives and relationships aside, the surrogacy process has become a bidding war, Mr. Amir said, especially within the larger agencies. With the current shortage, the agencies have started trying to lure more surrogates in any way they can.
Shea Eschman, who lives in Yukon, Okla., is carrying twins for a same-sex couple who live in Italy. The fact that they are gay was the cherry on top; as she, herself, is gay, and same-sex couples are banned from surrogacy in many countries outside the U.S.
Shea Eschman, who lives in Yukon, Okla., is carrying twins for a same-sex couple who live in Italy. The fact that they are gay was the “cherry on top,” as she, herself, is gay, and same-sex couples are banned from surrogacy in many countries outside the U.S.
“More monthly expenses, maternity clothing, prenatal massages, therapists,” Mr. Amir said. “The bigger the agency, the more you’re going to promise your surrogates and we, as parents, have to pay for it.”
Shirley Zager, a consultant and the owner of Parenting Partners in Gurnee, Ill., the agency Mr. Lee and his husband are using, said that before the pandemic her surrogates had typically requested $30,000 to $35,000 in compensation. Today, it can be as much as $75,000.
“They are aware that they can ask for more,” Ms. Zager said. Some have even made other requests, such as post-birth tummy tucks, spa days, a recovery trip and more, though Ms. Zager declines to accept those women into her agency.
Some agencies suggest that intended parents offer a cash bonus to those willing to get vaccinated; others are increasing their advertising budgets and starting surrogacy advocacy programs.
Tristen LaRue, 33, a case manager for Surrogate First in Lake Havasu City, Ariz., is about to start her second surrogacy for an international couple. (It’s common to be a repeat surrogate, and Ms. LaRue was a surrogate for a different couple previously.) She will be paid $50,000. During her intake interview, Ms. LaRue said, she was asked about her vaccination status, and like many other surrogates, she said that she was not willing to be vaccinated. The intended fathers accepted her position.
“It was somewhat of a calling for me,” said Ms. LaRue, who has two daughters. “I know the joys — and sometimes chaos — of being a parent. Seeing my kids learn and do new things every day in every stage of life is incredibly amazing and fulfilling. I want to help parents to achieve this same feeling."
www.nytimes.com/2022/04/02/style/surrogate-shortage-us-pandemic.html?mc_cid=bc2e0a4f4e&mc_eid=4c6b37d78d

OP posts:
Snowflakes1122 · 05/05/2022 13:27

This is all so Handmaids Tale.

Just awful. A baby should never be a bought, and a woman should never be used as a commodity like this.

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