To be a keep raising this with my boss? Experiences of colleagues undermining you welcome!

[Norfoal]

Please cheer me up with stories of your annoying colleagues!

This is about dave.

At Christmas I was recruited for a management position of the same team I was already working in

The post has previously been filled by Dave, then there was a period where it was vacant the someone else for a short period (who relocated) and now me.

Dave used to be my manager, then took a sideways move out of the role where he was at management level in my team but wasn't my direct line manager.

Dave is generally a very lovely, kind and helpful person if a bit inefficient

However I'm beginning to feel that dave is undermining me. Im not sure if its because I've begun to highlight some things that aren't going well? As an example

Daves team works side by side with mine, and 4 weeks ago I sent a request list of things that his team needed to do. I've sent multiple follow up emails, including one checking if it was appropriate to try and check if the work had been done (it hadnt). Eventually a cc'ed in our mutual manager and he replied to our manager only. He has asked that we try and not send tasks via email and just chat, but this makes me nervous as its hard to then show things are getting lost on his end not mine

I'm stuck between the approach of wanting to be a squeaky wheel and highlight whats happening or trying to just get on with my work and ignore his side of things.

I've removed as much as possible of the middle ground between our roles. As I believe it possible that the jobs he volunteers to take off me, are being explained to others as a "helping out OP as she's struggling"

Eg. In a wider meeting, I asked for some information and he replied it was all uploaded and he was suprised i hadn't seen it. I asked him to "help me find it" (knowing it hadn't been) and he then aknowledged it wasn't there

Does that sort of behaviour make me a complete pain?

Maybe he’s incompetent rather than malicious. Which is just as bad. Keep using e mail as a medium for making requests and recording follow up conversations. Also set up a weekly formal one to one with him to go through everything - phrase it as it’s your chance to catch up with him which helps your development as a new manager and improves communication between the two departments.
If he’s not responding as he should and not competing tasks, be assertive but polite and say the impact it’s having, then escalate to manager in your weekly/monthly catch up and be explicit about what steps you have taken to resolve this situation and now need his/her help to get Dave to do what he needs to do.

YANBU at all. His suggestion of informing his team of tasks via a chat and not email is laughable, he knows it looks shit.

Best thing to do:

• Arrange a call to talk through actions
• send follow up email bulleting actions to him/his team and your boss
• send follow up email if no response in reasonable timeframe

Glad it's not just me who finds it silly

I think you could have handled some things better, like following up by talking to people, not sending repeat emails Including finally copying in a manager. Tone can be lost in emails and people can read things thE wrong way.

Don't agree to his request to not email and just chat. Obviously this hides his incompetence, but also why should you default to his preferred method of communication?! You could just say that you use your emails to help you keep track of things, so will continue. You could always say you will talk to him first then follow up by email if you're feeling like compromising

Point out that if you mail it provides a handy checklist of tasks that everyone has.

If he insists - have a meeting, make a minute, and email it. Agree at the meeting that there will be regular update meetings with status reports, and make sure there are minutes of those meetings.

TBH i find it a dick move to cc a manager before speaking to someone. It's a bit like tale-telling.

Good point about the ccing in a manager

@mainsfed

YANBU at all. His suggestion of informing his team of tasks via a chat and not email is laughable, he knows it looks shit.

Best thing to do:

• Arrange a call to talk through actions
• send follow up email bulleting actions to him/his team and your boss
• send follow up email if no response in reasonable timeframe

This but don’t copy manager in to first or second email. if required cc manager into 3rd email.

Wanting information and updates via written communication is not being a squeaky wheel. It's creating an audit trail. You don't need an excuse to do this. Documenting what you do is sensible and professional in case you ever need to go back and understand or revisit something.

The bonus is that when he inevitably tries to blame you for his incompetence you have proof you did your job properly.

It definately wasn't the first email, It was after 3 weeks with no progress

Will take on board though that its probably seen as sly and equally that multiple emails with limited conversation is probably not the way foward. I think I'm just stuck in "nice" mode

I agree you need to keep an email trail of everything. I have raised so many issues with my manager yet he wanted to communicate with him via a chatbox instead. Yet if I do that I have no record of concerns raised. I sometimes think he must think I'm stupid.

Personally I hate it when colleagues email me ‘to do’ lists, especially with the manager copied in as it’s like trying to make out Dave’s incompetent. Maybe Dave disagreed with your ‘request list’? He’s been in management longer than you, why didn’t you discuss the requests with him? Emailing everyone sounds bossy and patronising!

No wonder he was defensive in response, and tried to make out you lack competence/efficiency! Eg you claimed he hadn’t uploaded certain information but he had, you just didn’t look properly?

My irritating colleague loves sending emails and copying both teams into it along with our manager. Mainly for petty things like ‘please ensure you all update the office cleaning rota, please remember to discuss annual leave requests before submitting them so we don’t have 3 off at the same time. I notice you haven’t yet finished XXX project when do you intend to have this done please? Also please ensure the X chart is completed by X date.

So I reply ‘XXX project has been completed and on the system for weeks, do you need help finding it?’

Things like the cleaning rota, annual leave, return to work forms, supervision etc don’t need to be emailed to everyone. Presumably you have a meeting every week or two when you can raise issues verbally and minute it?

Are Dave’s team actually under-performing or do you just need a paper trail for everything in case you forget where he’s up to or you’re anxious?

If the former speak to him in person, alone, then speak to your manager alone it he doesn’t improve or call a meeting for the 3 of you.

If the latter just stop emailing and talk to him.

People who keep sending emails annoy me and managers usually dislike being copied into every petty email. Excess need to email everyone suggests a communication failure on your part.

Summarising actions after a call isn’t a to-do list, it’s basic work practise.

Can you ask to introduce something like Trello which shows all tasks, who is doing what etc. It's often used as part of agile project management.

It's public so anyone involved will see where things are getting stuck but also will highlight where the real issues are coming from.

I think you should have spoken first, then perhaps sent an email 'to confirm what we have agreed' if you feel an audit trail is needed. Some people just ignore all emails, some are incompetent in managing them, and some may genuinely read things differently (or claim to as an excuse).

@BeneathYourWisdom

Personally I hate it when colleagues email me ‘to do’ lists, especially with the manager copied in as it’s like trying to make out Dave’s incompetent. Maybe Dave disagreed with your ‘request list’? He’s been in management longer than you, why didn’t you discuss the requests with him? Emailing everyone sounds bossy and patronising!

No wonder he was defensive in response, and tried to make out you lack competence/efficiency! Eg you claimed he hadn’t uploaded certain information but he had, you just didn’t look properly?

My irritating colleague loves sending emails and copying both teams into it along with our manager. Mainly for petty things like ‘please ensure you all update the office cleaning rota, please remember to discuss annual leave requests before submitting them so we don’t have 3 off at the same time. I notice you haven’t yet finished XXX project when do you intend to have this done please? Also please ensure the X chart is completed by X date.

So I reply ‘XXX project has been completed and on the system for weeks, do you need help finding it?’

Things like the cleaning rota, annual leave, return to work forms, supervision etc don’t need to be emailed to everyone. Presumably you have a meeting every week or two when you can raise issues verbally and minute it?

Are Dave’s team actually under-performing or do you just need a paper trail for everything in case you forget where he’s up to or you’re anxious?

If the former speak to him in person, alone, then speak to your manager alone it he doesn’t improve or call a meeting for the 3 of you.

If the latter just stop emailing and talk to him.

People who keep sending emails annoy me and managers usually dislike being copied into every petty email. Excess need to email everyone suggests a communication failure on your part.

This. Stop managing someone who is the same level as you.

@Norfoal

It definately wasn't the first email, It was after 3 weeks with no progress

Will take on board though that its probably seen as sly and equally that multiple emails with limited conversation is probably not the way foward. I think I'm just stuck in "nice" mode

After 3 weeks and prompts then it is fine to cc manager in. Sometimes it is the only way to get the work done.

@mainsfed

Summarising actions after a call isn’t a to-do list, it’s basic work practise.

OP hasn't done that though, she's just sent repeated emails.

I actually think he's stupid. He knew he was getting the work, he volunteered for it from the sounds of it. Why does he need a call about it or a chat? He should know what he's volunteered for.

If you must op, because you're dealing with an idiot, tell your manager that you will start doing an email followed by a call to make sure he knows what he is doing. Some adults still need their hands held even in work. They never improved from primary school. God knows what they are like at home, poor partners.

Just phone him and follow up with an email.

"Hi Dave, good to chat just now. glad that we agreed your team would do XYZ by X date, please let me know if you need anything from our side."

I can’t help but think of him as Buckells from line of duty.

Id also think about why you are cc-ing the manager- do you want them to take action? Are you hoping it will push dave into doing things you think he should have done? Do you want him to make your work higher priority because his boss knows its outstanding?

From his pov he probably feels grassed up and its damaging your relationship.

If you want your manager to take action you would do better tp talk to your manager and say you think dave is slowing things down, its having an impact on you and can they take X action to resolve it. Ccing the manager isnt achieving anytjing and potentially the manager is rolling their eyes at being copied in and used as leverage.

The hierarchy is unclear here.
You say your colleague is the same management level as you now, and on a different team. Yet you are emailing him lists of things to do.

Does Dave know that your job description and role include designating tasks to his team? Has the job description changed somehow since Dave was doing it, so he feels you're overstepping by getting involved with his team?

Given that your job spec involves this, are you and Dave having management meetings with both of your line managers on a regular basis to clarify things?

Tbf, from what you've said, it sounds to me more like Dave might be the one feeling undermined unless he knows part of your job is to send him task lists.

It definately wasn't the first email, It was after 3 weeks with no progress

what i say to my team is that emails are fine pre-meeting to set an agenda (formally or informally). After the meeting (or call or whatever with only those team members who need to be there) it's good practice to send a mail summarising the points (formal or informal minutes). Just to make a paper trail (i have worked with some absolute fuckers in my time so i do this all the time now) i ask if everyone agrees and if nobody has objected/replied by a date (3 or 4 days hence) I'll assume everyone agrees then distribute the minute (formal or unformal) to anyone who might be interested.

People don't respond to "nagging" emails, a call or stopping by their desk is better. And then following that up with an amail. After the 3rd time I approach manager (phone or stopping by their desk) and that's when i cc them into correspondence.

Works for me, YMMV

If he didn’t agree with the request list, he should just have replied to the email. Op has said that when he went to show her where the work was, it was apparent it wasn’t there.

He might just be bad at communication. I find voice calls annoying and inflexible. I prefer digital messages with links to the appropriate area where work is uploaded - which I can look at later if I am in the middle of something. But to keep the peace, I’d both chat and follow up with email to record what was agreed. I give him the benefit of the doubt and just email him to start with. After all, if managers ask - you can show them the trail.