School interview

[Allywill]

My daughter completes her PGCE in a couple of months and is currently applying for teaching positions starting this Sept. She had an interview yesterday, was told on Friday, had to prepare a lesson to be delivered to year 10s, a head teacher presentation (titles of both only given Friday evening) and prepare for interview. Monday she was on her usual placement in school until 4 then had to travel (Cambridge to Burnley) by train Monday night arriving at 10pm. Had to be at school for interview on Tuesday 8am. So far so good. It’s a lot to do in a very short timeframe but I get that’s how they do it.
However when she got to the interview, only her and a RQT who was already working at the school had been short listed. At the end of the day she was told she did well but that they were giving it to the RQT.
Am I being unreasonable to be annoyed? I feel it was a box ticking exercise and they knew who they were employing - she was just there to ensure due process had been followed. It cost best part of £100 to travel to the interview and she didn’t get back until 11pm that night. She was exhausted, disappointed and £100 down. When I was applying for graduate jobs (years and years ago) we got travel expenses - these were in the main private companies but I also got reimbursed for a train fare from the NHS. I suppose at least she has had the interview experience but it still feels very unfair.

[skirk64]

@GreenWillow

I agree it’s frustrating, but recruiters have been forced into this by well-intentioned policies around due process.

The alternative, where the internal candidate gets the ‘tap on the shoulder’ would be infinitely worse.

Yes it's all part of showing that they were fair and objective. They probably tailored the job description to fit the RQT, and the OP was the only other person to meet the criteria.

I had this experience from the other side once - I was to be given a certain role in the company, but told they had to advertise it externally so that HR could audit the process and check it was done correctly. The job description was written specifically for my skill set, I was told what questions I would be asked in the interview and what my answers should be. Unfortunately (for her) someone saw the advert and met the criteria so had to be interviewed even though they literally couldn't win the job.

[LolaSmiles]

GreenWillow
Schools don't have to advertise most posts. The only posts that have to are Heads and possibly deputy heads of LA schools, unless the governors can justify not doing so.

If the school wanted the internal candidate then they could have offered it to them. My school made some internal candidates interview against external candidates and gave the job to an external candidate who was stronger than the internal. I've got jobs as an external candidate over internals, and lost out on jobs as an internal candidate to an external.

Being an internal candidate in a school can be a blessing and a curse. I've known quite a few people who always seem to think they're there to make up numbers, but the likelihood is that the school doesn't gain anything by appointing a weaker candidate.

[LolaSmiles]

GreenWillow
Schools don't have to advertise most posts. The only posts that have to are Heads and possibly deputy heads of LA schools, unless the governors can justify not doing so.

If the school wanted the internal candidate then they could have offered it to them. My school made some internal candidates interview against external candidates and gave the job to an external candidate who was stronger than the internal.

Being an internal candidate in a school can be a blessing and a curse. I've known quite a few people who always seem to think they're there to make up numbers, but the likelihood is that the school doesn't gain anything by appointing a weaker candidate.

[Yokey]

I'm a teacher and I've been in your daughter's position. It's usually obvious when you're not really in with a shot.

I've also been around when my department is hiring. Good internal candidates will almost always win (unless it's a senior role). It's not difficult to see why: if they fit in and are liked by colleagues, know the policies, know the children, and everything is going well, why wouldn't you hire them?

It just sucks that so many schools go through the farce of interviewing. Huge waste of time and preparation, and very unfair.

Hopefully your daughter learnt something useful from the experience.

[LolaSmiles]

GreenWillow
Schools don't have to advertise most posts. The only posts that have to are Heads and possibly deputy heads of LA schools, unless the governors can justify not doing so.

If the school wanted the internal candidate then they could have offered it to them. My school made some internal candidates interview against external candidates and gave the job to an external candidate who was stronger than the internal.

Being an internal candidate in a school can be a blessing and a curse. I've known quite a few people who always seem to think they're there to make up numbers, but the likelihood is that the school doesn't gain anything by appointing a weaker candidate.

[Dasher789]

sorry to hear this op, i completely agree with your disappointment - yanbu.

I work in the private sector but have only ever had one firm pay travel expenses. I think it is such a shame because so many great candidates don't live in big cities and having travel paid for makes positions a lot more accessible. I think it is generally a thing of the past sadly.

[skirk64]

I have no idea why my answer has appeared repeatedly by the way.

[Fairyliz]

When DD was applying for graduate jobs a couple of years ago, she regularly had to travel a distance and sometimes stay overnight but never got travel expenses. So that seems a normal thing nowadays.
Fortunately we could afford to pay for all of her expenses, but I often wondered what other candidates did if their parents couldn’t afford to help out.

[Dasher789]

sorry to hear this op, i completely agree with your disappointment - yanbu.

I work in the private sector but have only ever had one firm pay travel expenses. I think it is such a shame because so many great candidates don't live in big cities and having travel paid for makes positions a lot more accessible. I think it is generally a thing of the past sadly.

[Dasher789]

sorry to hear this op, i completely agree with your disappointment - yanbu.

I work in the private sector but have only ever had one firm pay travel expenses. I think it is such a shame because so many great candidates don't live in big cities and having travel paid for makes positions a lot more accessible. I think it is generally a thing of the past sadly.

[MadMadMadamMim]

It's common practice, and it's frustrating. She needs to get used to it.

The other ridiculous thing about teaching interviews is that they are often interviewing candidates for a job, where one is 45 with 20 odd years experience and the other is a NQT straight out of teacher training.

Imagine being the better, far more experienced teacher and losing out to someone because they are £15k a year cheaper than you. And the school is looking to save money, rather than appoint the best candidate. You don't find hospital consultants competing for the same post with a junior doctor just out of med school, but this does happen in teaching. It's rarely the best teacher that gets it. Often it's the cheapest.

Or losing out to a man, because it's a primary job and they are desperate to employ more men in primary schools. Or, as you say, to an internal candidate/supply teacher who has already been ear marked for the job, but it has to be advertised.

There is nothing fair about many interviewing processes and it's deeply frustrating for many candidates. Those who think the best person will get the job are naively fooling themselves in many cases.

[Thirtyrock39]

Teaching interview days are very high pressured- big panels Doing the interview , teaching a lesson to kids you don't know is stressful and even the existing teacher would have found the kids probably knew it was a one off interview lesson - also knowing you'll find out and gave to accept or decline on the same day piles on the pressure and can make it very disappointing if you don't get it. This year in particular I'm hearing it's very competitive and a lot of teacher training students aren't even getting interviews so she would have done well to get as far as she did and it'll be really good experience for the next one. I think I had five interviews when I was on pgce

[Italiandreams]

There is no way a school can justify paying travel expenses! Do people not understand how underfunded school are? This is not something public money could be spent on. I understand it’s frustrating but I have beaten internal candidates to a job before, it’s not impossible and know others that have too. It’s good experience and fingers crossed your daughter gets a job soon, good luck to her.

[LolaSmiles]

GreenWillow
Schools don't have to advertise most posts. The only posts that have to are Heads and possibly deputy heads of LA schools, unless the governors can justify not doing so.

If the school wanted the internal candidate then they could have offered it to them. My school made some internal candidates interview against external candidates and gave the job to an external candidate who was stronger than the internal. I've got jobs as an external candidate over internals, and lost out on jobs as an internal candidate to an external.

Being an internal candidate in a school can be a blessing and a curse. I've known quite a few people who always seem to think they're there to make up numbers, but the likelihood is that the school doesn't gain anything by appointing a weaker candidate.

[Italiandreams]

There is no way a school can justify paying travel expenses! Do people not understand how underfunded school are? This is not something public money could be spent on. I understand it’s frustrating but I have beaten internal candidates to a job before, it’s not impossible and know others that have too. It’s good experience and fingers crossed your daughter gets a job soon, good luck to her.

[VickyEadieofThigh]

@LolaSmiles

If the school wanted to offer it to an internal candidate then they could. My school has given NQT jobs to trainees on placement instead of advertising.
I've also been at interviews where there were internal candidates and got the job over them.

It's disappointing, but she is better taking any feedback she can and using it for her next interview.

Indeed. It is not necessary (though many people still believe that it is) to advertise such posts externally if the head wants to appoint an existing internal candidate.

Speaking as a former secondary head, we always gave travel expenses.

[Brefugee]

Confused as to why they’d reimburse travel funds.

Normal where I am. I had a flight paid once from Hamburg to Munich

[Italiandreams]

I am amazed at schools paying travel expenses, we barely have any support staff anymore , our technology is really old, we have had to make so many cut backs that the children are being let down , there is no way we could justify the redundancies we have had to make and then pay travel expenses.

[Groovee]

I've never had travel expenses paid and I've worked in schools for 27 years. The only time I did get asked for my bus tickets, they were shocked that I had walked but I was still in school and all applicants were School leavers.

I've also been in the position where the external candidate got the job over me despite me doing it for 18 months.

[newnortherner111]

I can understand the disappointment and frustration, especially the wish to work in your home town. It is of course nothing new, either to avoid allegations of unfairness, or to get the favoured/internal candidate not to think it is a given, or for some other reason.

Expenses are rare for interviews in my experience.

[covilha]

If she will have to pay to attend the interview in future, why not ask if anyone already at the school has also been shortlisted? It is not a given that they will be offered the job but they will know about the culture and expectations of the school, its preferred teaching styles and they may already know some of the staff. She can then decide whether to attend and if she declines, politely explain about the cost and that based on previous experiences she has made the difficult decision to decline the interview, on this occastion

[covilha]

If she will have to pay to attend the interview in future, why not ask if anyone already at the school has also been shortlisted? It is not a given that they will be offered the job but they will know about the culture and expectations of the school, its preferred teaching styles and they may already know some of the staff. She can then decide whether to attend and if she declines, politely explain about the cost and that based on previous experiences she has made the difficult decision to decline the interview, on this occastion

[lostlife]

Schools don't pay travel expenses for teaching posts. They assume that if you are local enough to be applying or a job you can afford to get to the school. They are not posts to which you anticipate getting candidates relocating.

Is she studying education at Cambridge? If so she will find Burnley a massive culture shock (educationally)

[BeingATwatItsABingThing]

When your DD applied for the job, she knew where it was and that she’d have to travel. The school shouldn’t be expected to reimburse that and, if it’s anything like my school, could not afford to pay for this. Anyone who has anything to do with schools at the moment knows how desperately underfunded they are and I know I couldn’t ask for this money back when it was my choice to apply. YABU on that front.

Internal applicants are frustrating and disheartening though, I will agree with you there. Turning up to my first interview to discover an internal candidate left me feeling hacked off. I’m glad I didn’t get that job though after I heard more about that school and the man who got it had to apply again the following year because it was a year contract. I got my job after 4 interviews and I’m still there 5 years later with no intention of moving any time soon.

[BeingATwatItsABingThing]

When your DD applied for the job, she knew where it was and that she’d have to travel. The school shouldn’t be expected to reimburse that and, if it’s anything like my school, could not afford to pay for this. Anyone who has anything to do with schools at the moment knows how desperately underfunded they are and I know I couldn’t ask for this money back when it was my choice to apply. YABU on that front.

Internal applicants are frustrating and disheartening though, I will agree with you there. Turning up to my first interview to discover an internal candidate left me feeling hacked off. I’m glad I didn’t get that job though after I heard more about that school and the man who got it had to apply again the following year because it was a year contract. I got my job after 4 interviews and I’m still there 5 years later with no intention of moving any time soon.