3 month stay in France?

[Ofallthebarsinalltheworld]

Hi, not sure if this is the right place to post. Basically we are thinking of staying in France for 3 months over the winter (all being well covid wise)

We have our own business so can work from anywhere. We have a supervisor who can run the on the ground bits.

Dd is homeschooled so that would continue in France.

I have itchy feet and after covid feel like I/we need an adventure. It would be a fabulous opportunity and life experience.

We would cut or cloth and save like mad to cover the 3 months and rent out our home as a holiday home to cover our Bill's here.

Am I mad? Is this possible?

All opinions/thoughts welcome 😊

OP, the question of working remotely abroad came up a lot last year during the first lockdown, when people looked in to working remotely from abroad rather than their UK residence. At the time travel seemed to be the major barrier. The answer seemed to be that as long as it was only for a couple of months (less than 90 days) it's doable. There's an awful lot of general info on the net about it if you Google, but I'd still like to hear the French consulates response.

OP you should indeed ask the French consulate to ask about whether you need to pay social security payments during your stay of less than 90 days in France. Please let us know what they say!

And first of all whether you should perhaps be getting a work permit like even the UK government says you should:
www.gov.uk/visit-eu-switzerland-norway-iceland-liechtenstein/business-travel-extra-requirements

The OP is not on holiday, though. She is going to work remotely for her business. She absolutely needs a work permit and pay the relevant contributions in France. She may of course claim to be on holiday and still work secretly, and she’s not too likely to be found out. But that’s a different matter.

OP, the question of working remotely abroad came up a lot last year during the first lockdown, when people looked in to working remotely from abroad rather than their UK residence.

France introduced a waiver for “border workers” during the lockdown so they could work from home in France like everyone else. That’s over now and so is the transition period. The French are going to be on the lookout for fake tourists, obviously. The far-right is on the rise here and does not need to be given extra ammunition. Expat communities all over Europe are getting a bit exasperated with people who don’t think the rules apply to them. @Lynette, you could also call the consulate yourself and ask about entering France as a tourist and working there.

I seemed to totally have misunderstood the OP. I genuinely thought she was looking to travel, and work while abroad, not travel to France to work.

I understand a fake tourist to be someone who stays longer than 90 days (I have known enough Americans in France who have managed that in the past, much to my bemusement!) otherwise how can it be monitored?

Anyway, France sounds hideous from the posts on this thread. If I hadn't lived there for three years I may be tempted never to go there at all, from what I've read here

As we are no longer in the EU you cannot just go and work in France. You can enter as a tourist (for up to 90 days) but if you intend to work in any capacity you need a visa. Freedom of movement has disappeared.

You might well get away with it in the scenario you describe, but you would be breaking the law. Personally I wouldn't think it worth it as you might have problems travelling to EU countries in future if you do get caught.

Sounds to me that if the OP goes ahead they would be pushing the boundaries of what's allowable, whether he/she is comfortable with that is down to them....

Brexit has brought the whole issue of right to work/work permits into play for Brits. Even if the OP owns the company and are "only" working from home/remotely it's not at all impossible the "fisc" - (tax office) will take an interest if they find out.

Given it sounds like the OP is planning on not being resident I'll offer an FYI that the "fisc" do tax French residents on any money earned in the UK - be it investment income, pensions or physical work whilst in the UK - as any UK/France cross border worker will attest.

.and that reminds me I have two tax returns to sort out, a French and a UK one, so I shouldn't be wasting time here.

Very interesting thread, and some clarification of the rules would be good if anyone finds them.

Potentially if we go to France this summer for 3 weeks or so to stay with family and friends, and we log on to check work email (both work in IT so always work remotely and flexibly.) are we breaking the rules?

PILs are elderly so we would like to visit them in France for longer than usual and it would be more doable if we can each work a couple of days whilst in France.

If that is ok, then where is the line drawn? For example if either of PIL were ill (they are in late 80s) could DH not visit and work from their home for a few weeks?

I don't think simply checking work e-mails is going to ring too many bells..OTOH setting up a home office and establishing some sort of working pattern for weeks on end might.

Link to English language version of the French Tax Office website here:

www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/international_en?l=en

*Potentially if we go to France this summer for 3 weeks or so to stay with family and friends, and we log on to check work email (both work in IT so always work remotely and flexibly.) are we breaking the rules?

PILs are elderly so we would like to visit them in France for longer than usual and it would be more doable if we can each work a couple of days whilst in France.

If that is ok, then where is the line drawn? For example if either of PIL were ill (they are in late 80s) could DH not visit and work from their home for a few weeks?*

Well, obviously the line is drawn somewhere. No, you can’t, officially, visit France on the 90-day waiver and then work from there. I’d surmise that nobody regards merely reading your work emails as doing work. Take a look at the UK government page I linked to earlier.

I don’t know anybody who particularly likes the new rules. People in compelling circumstances do what they have to do, but in the long term what you are looking at is not sustainable. These questions are better asked on a specialized forum such as

www.expatforum.com/forums/france-expat-forum-for-expats-living-in-france.12/

which is full of people with similar dilemmas, and some expats with specialized knowledge who can advise.

HI OP

I'd strongly recommend the Strictly France groups on FB. There is Strictly Legal, Strictly Fiscal and Strictly Santé. The groups have professional notaires etc as members and the admin are very strict on only allowing legal information to be posted - not opinions or judgements on what you propose. They would be able to point you in the right direction for advice on working here, accessing healthcare etc.

FWIW I think it's a lot of trouble to go to for 3 months, especially over winter (unless you are coming for skiing) when the weather is not going to be great. I agree with the pp upthread that your daughter is unlikely to make many friends unless you can tap into a homeschool network: French life tends to be very routine and driven by the school schedule, and French people are very family-centric.

And as a general point, the rules on working / residence were not really designed with "digital nomads" in mind. I work in a school that caters for families that have either been expatriated to France or French families returning to France for work - people who generally go where their employer is sending them. We are getting more applications every year from families who can work anywhere, and are deciding for whatever reason that our city in France ticks their boxes for a year or two. It's not just the young, free, single that can up sticks and move to another country for a while - it's increasingly families, with kids, that are doing this -and the tax / legal system is not necessarily designed for this.

As an aside dare I mention I think one issue underlying some of the sentiment being displayed is that many Brits still resident are scarred to some extent by the continuing post Brexit experience.,

Many of us have had to indulge in lots of jumping through hoops, such as presenting umpteen years of French tax returns and utility bills to demonstrate we've been been living in France/working in France, paying taxes etc....For many Brits that process continues, others have given up on the process and headed back to the UK, sometimes for reasons often never explained .

So please forgive at least some of us if we politely ask/hint that anybody coming to France on a long stay tries to do things properly, legit and is above board with the authorities.

Last thing we need is any more ammunition for those that have an issue with immigrants staying below the radar.

In my tax return in France this year, I was given the option to choose that I was doing teletravail for a foreign company and wished to be taxed in the country my business was in.

Slowly, but they are adapting...

Also, there is an exemption for business travel. I have in the past spent well over 90 days on business travel in other countries and have never had a tax issue (continued paying taxes in UK).

In my tax return in France this year, I was given the option to choose that I was doing teletravail for a foreign company and wished to be taxed in the country my business was in.

Yep, seen that, yes they are catching up, and if somebody is resident in France /with permission to work in the EU (either by way of nationality, or for example having a Titre de Sejour) it makes perfect sense to declare that income in that way..however one unresolved question here is whether it is permissible for the OP to teletravail from France at all in the current circumstances now that the UK has become a "third country" with regard to the EU. That's probably more of a 64k euro question than the tax one .

FWIW the French consulat advice on that is:

"UK citizens going to France to work for up to 90 days will not require a visa. They will need to obtain a temporary work permit unless travelling for a sporting, cultural or scientific event, a seminar or trade show, the production and broadcast of cinematographic and audiovisual works, modelling, IT/ asset management/ insurance/ finance/ design/ engineering audit or expertise missions. Attention, a long stay visa is required if staying more than 90 days in France."

uk.ambafrance.org/BREXIT-all-visa-related-provisions

Does it have to be France? There are other countries which will be far nicer in the winter where you are allowed to work from home without having to pay tax there. Mauritius for example: www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/mauritius-long-term-stay-visa

In my tax return in France this year, I was given the option to choose that I was doing teletravail for a foreign company and wished to be taxed in the country my business was in.

I believe that was the special lockdown waiver for cross-border workers.

OP if you are sensible about it, you won't get caught. Life has moved on and lots of people are going to be working remotely from other locations.

However, I will say that France seems more complex than other countries - a friend of mine went over just before the transition period ended and even though he did have the right to work there, it was still too complex and he came back. But I am struggling to see how anyone is going to know what you are doing. I could go to France and do my freelance sideline and be paid into my English bank account by my English customer. How is anyone in France going to know? They would just assume you were on an extended holiday.

*OP if you are sensible about it, you won't get caught. Life has moved on and lots of people are going to be working remotely from other locations.

However, I will say that France seems more complex than other countries - a friend of mine went over just before the transition period ended and even though he did have the right to work there, it was still too complex and he came back. But I am struggling to see how anyone is going to know what you are doing. I could go to France and do my freelance sideline and be paid into my English bank account by my English customer. How is anyone in France going to know? They would just assume you were on an extended holiday.*

So the question is “AIBU to break the law because I fancy it?”?

We did this for two months (elderly ILs live rurally in France). I worked remotely, DH homeschooled kids. Was really wonderful. Didn’t end up in prison for tax evasion. Do it!

@GammyLeg

We did this for two months (elderly ILs live rurally in France). I worked remotely, DH homeschooled kids. Was really wonderful. Didn’t end up in prison for tax evasion. Do it!

Before or after 1 Jan 2021........

However, I will say that France seems more complex than other countries - a friend of mine went over just before the transition period ended and even though he did have the right to work there, it was still too complex and he came back.

Going off piste from the subject of the thread for a moment...

Gaining the right to continued residency / right to work in Europe, post transition was never going to be "the easiest thing in the world" for Brits, despite some claims. France may be complex but from what I've heard no less complex than other countries.

In France it's basically a case of showing you've been paying taxes when and where appropriate, can support yourself financially (i.e. not be a burden on the State) and have access to / can fund healthcare - either though having a history of paying tax/social charges and/or having health insurance at least initially. It is a longwinded process and a paper chase and can involves several interviews but that's the basics of it.

I think those that have perhaps come to grief are either those that arrived at the last minute and thought it would be a shoo in, and those longer terms residents who seemed to have difficulty finding copies of old utility bills registered to their French address, French tax returns or difficulties finding any paperwork proving the French Health authorities knew of their existence....

Go!

I did something similar a few years ago and had the most amazing time.

Lots of people have given practical advice (and some people have given stupid advice) but it is all absolutely doable.

No further comment from me, just a link to info that people may or may not be appropriate.:

www.remaininfrance.fr/remoteworking