How much unpaid overtime is acceptable

[Lemonwoe]

Just curious. At a salary of £40k, how much unpaid overtime would you expect to do?

£38k and I probably do a few hours' a week extra, but it's my business and I don't let any of my staff do unpaid overtime (max a few minutes to finish something). It either waits, or if it really really can't (very rare - maybe once a year) they're paid for it.

I don't think any employee should have to do unpaid overtime and especially not to make up a staffing shortfall, but I do recognise that I am fortunate enough to work in the type of role and sector where it's possible to make that a reality. I'm angry for those of you who aren't, and for a culture which has let us believe that 60 hour work weeks for no extra pay are necessary to get ahead, or keep your job... my staff clock out at 5 and not a minute after and I generally enforce that. If they finish a particular task at 4.45 and the next thing they'd be doing will take them an hour, they can go home early. If they're finishing something and it'll take til 5.10, fine, but otherwise I want them to know we aren't going to put excessive demands on their time and that we value it.

I've worked places where I was expected to work til at least 8pm most nights, and if you said you couldn't for any reason, including: your own engagement party, a physio appointment, or a table booked for food (i.e. not just 'because I'm not being paid to'), you were treated as though you'd said you were taking the entire day off work to eat Quavers and watch Loose Women. They genuinely couldn't understand it. It was why I left and I've never been happier.

This will turn into how many extra hours teachers do and how no one else works as hard.

On a busy week, I can do an extra 20 hours unpaid easily. On a quiet week, it's at least 5 hours.

That's with 6 weeks annual leave. There is "flexitime" but that just means I can work the extra hours when I fancy.

It was a while ago but probably an average of 2 hours a day

@GinJeanie

Do teachers like working for free? Well maybe they do? Otherwise they could just quit and find a new job or profession? They seem to moan a lot but then they don’t do anything to change it. The profession attracts a lot of martyrs, no one is forced into staying in any job or profession.

If it’s that bad, then quit moaning and leave.

In the professions such as the big 4 accounting firms you would likely do significant "unpaid" overtime and no TOIL.If you don't, you will probably fail / not get promoted.

Zero. No good company should run on people doing regular overtime. If I need to do extra work beyond my 40hr week - for example, to meet a client requirement - I will use TOIL. This is standard with my employer, nobody is expected to work unpaid overtime no matter what pay grade you’re on. It’s poor practice and a bad example to set.

If I were required to do overtime as BAU I’d query my workload. Occasionally, maybe once a quarter I need to put in a weekend or some late nights to cover a busy spell, but this week e.g, I actually haven’t had enough to do. I know I’ve got a busy spell coming though so I’m happy to have a few quiet days at the moment.

@quizqueen

If someone is on salary, I guess they generally get paid if they are sick, so swings and roundabouts really as, if you are on an hourly rate, you wouldn't get full pay. I also don't believe teachers work every day in the school holidays (12 weeks) so their hours average out too. I'm a retired teacher and would go into school for a few days either side of the summer holiday and not do much extra over the half terms.

This makes no sense as teachers are not paid for non-term weeks. As a retired teacher you should be familiar with 1265.

[quote Chillychangchoo]@GinJeanie

Do teachers like working for free? Well maybe they do? Otherwise they could just quit and find a new job or profession? They seem to moan a lot but then they don’t do anything to change it. The profession attracts a lot of martyrs, no one is forced into staying in any job or profession.

If it’s that bad, then quit moaning and leave.[/quote]
The teachers on here have answered the question. Do you know that there are no campaigns around this? To just suggest that everyone who has stated that they work above paid hours should quit (or is that just teachers too) is a little silly. Can you imagine what would happen?

@sparkle17

I can't believe how many teachers routinely work extra and routinely accept it. Teachers must be exhausted and then are expected to provide good quality education.

It's the same for university academics. It's a good job I'm passionate about what I do!!

@Newrumpus

What are you even talking about? Take some personal responsibility. If you do not like doing overtime find a job that doesn’t require it. If it’s not possible in the short term, get a long term plan of action to work out an escape route. It can be done.

The more teachers who work silly hours and act like martyrs do a total disservice to the profession. They make the expectations worse on everybody else. Like I said no one is tied to a profession, but the way some teachers go on you would think they were completing a prison sentence.

Depends on the job, depends on the level, depends on the sector 🤷

Not everyone is working on a fixed 9 to 5 contract. I prefer being in a much more flexible environment personally.

And all the unpaid overtime done in the past have paid off in the long term for me. Clock-watchers didn't go very far, got nothing in term of promotion and bonuses and had to make up every minute they missed for being late .
No one raise an eyebrow if I turned up at 11am or left at 2pm.

If you are in a dead-end job, no reason for doing unpaid overtime.

The 1265 thing always is a bit annoying and I don't think helpful - I say this as an ex teacher and wife of a teacher. No other full time job works this few hours - and it's deceiving as it does imply teaching is a school hours only job when we all know it's anything but. And as a previous poster said if we say teachers don't get paid the extra 8 weeks holiday compared to other jobs (taking off the 5 weeks annual leave most professions get) it means teachers are paid a lot more than nurses etc

Unless you are a teacher ( I have been) 0 at £40k

[quote Chillychangchoo]@Newrumpus

What are you even talking about? Take some personal responsibility. If you do not like doing overtime find a job that doesn’t require it. If it’s not possible in the short term, get a long term plan of action to work out an escape route. It can be done.

The more teachers who work silly hours and act like martyrs do a total disservice to the profession. They make the expectations worse on everybody else. Like I said no one is tied to a profession, but the way some teachers go on you would think they were completing a prison sentence.[/quote]
Personal responsibility for what?

I love my job. Always have done. I don’t need to quit or find another profession.

I don’t see any martyrs on here. Just teachers (amongst others) answering the question. I’m not sure why this has rattled you so much. Does NHS overtime get you so heated?

@Thirtyrock39

The 1265 thing always is a bit annoying and I don't think helpful - I say this as an ex teacher and wife of a teacher. No other full time job works this few hours - and it's deceiving as it does imply teaching is a school hours only job when we all know it's anything but. And as a previous poster said if we say teachers don't get paid the extra 8 weeks holiday compared to other jobs (taking off the 5 weeks annual leave most professions get) it means teachers are paid a lot more than nurses etc

I sort of agree as it is 1265 directed and the rest undirected and undefined. Unfortunately, there is now an assumption that much of that undirected work can be directed which is why the conflict arises, I think. Trying to direct work outside of the 1265 has eroded much good will.

@Newrumpus

Not really no because I don’t hear NHS workers moaning that much about overtime to be totally honest. I genuinely only know teachers who moan a lot about it, like they have no other options in life. If you don’t mind doing unpaid overtime for a vocation that you love then good for you! I should imagine that could potentially piss off others though who want a life outside of the school gates but have to keep up with the likes of you at work.

Guess it’s cultural in schools. Suck it up or leave I guess.

None.

[quote Chillychangchoo]@Newrumpus

Not really no because I don’t hear NHS workers moaning that much about overtime to be totally honest. I genuinely only know teachers who moan a lot about it, like they have no other options in life. If you don’t mind doing unpaid overtime for a vocation that you love then good for you! I should imagine that could potentially piss off others though who want a life outside of the school gates but have to keep up with the likes of you at work.

Guess it’s cultural in schools. Suck it up or leave I guess.[/quote]
There are NHS workers on this thread! Your assumptions about me are bizarre - what are the likes of me?

Work for a big four professional services firm, work 'according to business needs' - contract is 35 hours a week (lol), senior management.

I've had years where I've done +60 hours per week but then I've had some years where I've done 35 and you tend take on more if you want a promotion. But there is a massive give-take for personal commitments, so I am trusted to manage my own time, the partners are getting better at recognising their employees worth so are much better at giving TOIL from when I started off as a graduate

Don't think teachers are moaning, just answering the question. There are a lot of teachers on mumsnet though, and workload is a big teaching issue so not surprising so many have responded to this thread.

And all the unpaid overtime done in the past have paid off in the long term for me. Clock-watchers didn't go very far, got nothing in term of promotion and bonuses and had to make up every minute they missed for being late grin.
No one raise an eyebrow if I turned up at 11am or left at 2pm.

Not everybody cares about promotions and bonuses though. I look back on my life and I’m happy that I’ve spent more time with people I love, doing things I love, rather than spending even more time making someone else richer.

I’m definitely a work to live person. Different strokes and all that.

If you count the extra hours I'm in school and then the hours I work at home then I probably do 15 hours a week extra on average, not counting anything I do in the school holidays. My salary is very good for my level of responsibility but unfortunately the extra hours are unavoidable.

I'm averaging 7 hours a week unpaid at the moment, on a just above minimum wage job.

On £40K FT I'd say between an hour and an hour and a half per business day. In most companies, especially US ones, the more senior the job, the more overtime you are expected to do as part of your 'package' if you want to progress.