This is the best article i've read on this subject, it could have been my story! This is why the tories absolutely destroyed labour in the GE and why brexit happened.

[pabloescobarselasticband]

I also grew up in a staunchly Labour supporting household who now all vote conservative and voted for brexit. When are the Liberals going to actually take notice of what they have become? When are they going to make Labour a viable voting option for the average person?

I read that earlier and think a lot of what he says is true, especially regarding the benefits system. You’ve got whole families who’ve never worked a day in their life, and probably never will because they’re better off on benefits and know how to work the system. I think a lot of posters don’t believe these kinds of people exits, but they do because I’ve met them! They don’t have any aspirations.

However the rest of us the article is snobby and he appears to sneer at his family and the people who grew up with because he’s bettered himself and they haven’t. Who care whether or not his mum called cigarettes ‘fags’?

I vote labour because I share their values. I don't blame the conservatives for not sharing the same values as me.

I don't agree with Geoff norcott. If you're a Tory then fine but it's not Labour's 'fault'.

I like GN, but theres nothing new in this article. The working class have always voted Conservative. If they hadn't, the Tory party wouldn't have spent so much time in power.

Hes a bit of a dick about his parents though.

Well I grew up working class on a council estate and I think he sounds like a heartless bastard. Sneering at his own mother in the Daily Mail for claiming benefits and wearing her dressing gown in the afternoon while also casually slipping in that she became paralysed and needed a wheelchair. I find it despicable

The tired old tropes on this thread is like a window into the early 2010's when the Tories decided to punish the poor and disabled for the temerity of being poor and disabled, fun fucking times

The tories have been in power for over 10 years, what exactly have they done in that time to help wc people?

The writing was on the wall for Brexit and Boris Johnson in deciding it would make a good career move sealed that

Problem is many politicians have been so out of touch with voters for many years. Many people are earning what they were earning 15 years ago yet the cost of living has increased and along came Nigel Farage which to many of the left refused to take seriously they mocked him by mocking him they played into his hands as they also locked his supporters

Many voters were sneered at their experiences were constantly dismissed in favour for stats. Then during the referendum the case of experts against the people - people’s experiences should be listened to regards of experts (who rarely have the same experience)

I had high hopes for Keir Starmer I thought him being the antidote to Boris Johnson would appeal but it hasn’t he is certainly intelligent enough but the party needs rebuilding after the mess left from the Corbyn years and he isn’t the person to reach out to voters

Conservatives would easily win another election if it happened soon people are quite ok with turning a blind eye to Boris Johnson’s antics it’s nothing knew we have always known he is void of integrity

Interesting that some MNers who evidently know what they’re talking about, say that fiddling benefits is definitely a Thing. While on any ‘should I shop this person for fraud’ thread, there are always people saying of course not, fraud is a mere tiny percentage.

I do always wonder how they think they can assert that as if they know it for a fact, when by definition only the reported or suspected cases, which have been proven, can possibly be known about.

Thing is anecdotal experience is not the same as quantifiable stats.
So the old story that generations of families are living the life of riley on benefits is actually wrong although anecdotally it might appear so.
Most people on benefits are actually in work on low pay or pensioners but the right wing press loves telling us otherwise and tries to stir up feelings against so called benefit 'scroungers' for it's own political ends (diverting attention away from companies who should pay a real living wage)
What's so ironic is that those who moan about so called scroungers are actually quite happy to see BJ siphoning off millions to his cronies
Equally the old chestnut that East europeans and their families were flooding the country and depriving children of school places, taking our jobs and clogging up gp surgeries wasn't accurate but when 'experts' tried to tell us so they were dismissed as being condescending or not listening.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

Interesting that some MNers who evidently know what they’re talking about, say that fiddling benefits is definitely a Thing. While on any ‘should I shop this person for fraud’ thread, there are always people saying of course not, fraud is a mere tiny percentage.

I do always wonder how they think they can assert that as if they know it for a fact, when by definition only the reported or suspected cases, which have been proven, can possibly be known about.

I agree! Since the benefit cap came into force the way to fiddle is disability benefits. These are not capped. Hence a sudden rise in mental health conditions ones that cannot be disproven. People that don't believe this goes on are actually deluded, im a hcp and as i stated earlier i grew up on a wc council estate. The trouble any government has is that when they introduce measures to encourage people not to live on benefits ( like the cap) these people immediately work out a way to get round it.

@Onetoomuch

Thing is anecdotal experience is not the same as quantifiable stats. So the old story that generations of families are living the life of riley on benefits is actually wrong although anecdotally it might appear so. Most people on benefits are actually in work on low pay or pensioners but the right wing press loves telling us otherwise and tries to stir up feelings against so called benefit 'scroungers' for it's own political ends (diverting attention away from companies who should pay a real living wage) What's so ironic is that those who moan about so called scroungers are actually quite happy to see BJ siphoning off millions to his cronies Equally the old chestnut that East europeans and their families were flooding the country and depriving children of school places, taking our jobs and clogging up gp surgeries wasn't accurate but when 'experts' tried to tell us so they were dismissed as being condescending or not listening.

No one said generations of families are living the life of reilly on benefits, but the facts remain that there are generations of some families that have never and have no intention of ever working.

" the way to fiddle is disability benefits"

Oh OP you have no idea what it's really like on disability benefits do you? Having to describe the most incredibly shameful moments of your life to a complete stranger so they can judge if you're sick enough for the pittance they'll throw your way is one of the most humiliating things I go through regularly, it makes my "hard to disprove" mental health conditions far worse, the stress of wondering if this person with no medical experience will understand why being left alone is so dangerous to me or wondering if they'll be a judgemental idiot with no idea of how debilitating mental health conditions are, much like yourself.

How pathetic that some people still see those of us on benefits as scum completely undeserving of just enough money to not fucking starve to death.

I'd love to live the life of riley on my benefits but instead I'm here unable to afford school shoes and food at the same time and terrified of every brown envelope that comes through the door.

High levels of immigration will always impact working classes the most. The estate my family lived on soon became an estate that was predominantly Asian in the 70’s

If the pressure on local services was spread evenly this wouldn’t happen but it doesn’t

Look at some schools in London in diverse areas some will have a very high level of children from ethnic backgrounds many second generation a few streets up vast majority of children are white middle class (even more so than the private schools)

I know from the area I live in my GP (poor area of the borough) I have to wait longer for an appointment

Are we really claiming that all of society is treated as equals oh please this is the problem that working class people say hang on we are taking the brunt of changes and called racist (which some are but I’ve met just as many racist mc so called liberals)

Would love to know if OP will be banned or will the deletion message be the usual not in the spirit of the site after posting the usual benefit claimant bashing bullshit, no wonder hate crime against disabled people has risen since 2010 with the OP's attitude still around

@JustAnotherPoster00

Would love to know if OP will be banned or will the deletion message be the usual not in the spirit of the site after posting the usual benefit claimant bashing bullshit, no wonder hate crime against disabled people has risen since 2010 with the OP's attitude still around

My attitude? I have nothing against disabled people! I merely stated that this is the latest way for people to fiddle benefits, surely this has a detrimental effect on people who are actually disabled? Its the eternally offended like yourself who are part of the issue if you ask me!

@PattyPan

The tories have been in power for over 10 years, what exactly have they done in that time to help wc people?

I would like this question answered too.

Its the eternally offended like yourself who are part of the issue if you ask me!

What disabled people like me? Ive had to navigate an increasingly hostile benefit system to try and live a life that the Tory party would happily deny me, trust me, it really isnt the life of riley, and having people call me all sorts of names because I have a hidden disability so clearly I'm fiddling the system right? Get fucked OP

@OhWhyNot can't link but there is lots of research to suggest that the situation is not as simple as you suggest. Try fullfact as a good example. All depends on when the research was done and other variables.

Have you ever realised that the reason you can't get an appointment with your gp is because there's a shortage of gps due to lack of investment and not because of too many immigrants ? (Many of whom are the immigrants you are complaining about !) Vote for a government that promises proper investment in the NHS, schools, prisons rather than blaming the usual culprits ie other poor people for the lamentable state of the country .

I never said it was that simple did I

I pointed out that people’s experiences are often ignored

And again why do we not face the fact that when there are high levels of immigration it impacts working class more

And again why do we not face the fact that when there are high levels of immigration it impacts working class more

Still wrong no matter how right you think you are, lack of infrastructure spending and poverty wages affect the working classes more not schrodingers immigrant

Did I say that immigration was the only reason that working class people are impacted more

No I didn’t

But again ignored people’s experiences

I can't stand him to be honest, and I'm surprised that anyone would find that article the best thing they'd read on the topic because it seemed to me all it revealed was his bitterness about his past and his desire to distance himself from his background and family. He's the same age as me so lived in Tory-ruled Britain until he was 21, so if there was a problem with the benefit system stopping his mum from working then it happened under a Tory government, not Labour, though his comments about his mum are pretty horrible and I agree with the pp who said she may have had a mental health issue if it was all as he described.

I don't know if he was trying to blame Labour for the oh-so ridiculous shenanigans his 'lefty' teachers inflicted on him, but I was at school when he was under the Tories and remember temporary classrooms and a shortage of books. As a teacher under Labour, everything wasn't perfect, but there was an influx of funding and PPA was introduced, which made a big difference to my working life. Then the Tories came back and we got Gove...

Also, all that shit about his dad and the union. Typical right-wing bullshit trying to discredit the trade union movement which has given us many of the rights we all, not just Labour voters, take for granted and benefit from. And I notice he has no actual details about how his dad was 'bombed' from his job but just seems to be vaguely trying to pin it on some kind of betrayal from the union.

And 'small-c conservatism' doesn't mean what he seems to think it does. The expression he was looking for when describing his attitude to his mum was petty, small-minded snobbery, I'd say.

Despite what he seems to think. he is far from being the first working-class person to vote Tory. He's obviously got some issues about it as it's all he ever bangs on about but he's probably better off accepting that he's got some hang-ups about the area he grew up in nd the way his family was and voting Tory is probably partly a way of distancing himself from that. Maybe he'd benefit from some talking therapy to come to terms with things? Don't get me wrong, there are lots of problems with Labour now, but this is just self-serving twaddle from someone who who protests too much about why it's all Labour's fault he's chosen to do something that goes against morality in many ways.

The problem at the time,is labour with momentum on board was listening to party members too much, party members don't get you elected the voters do, and momentum was particularly a bit odious.

If you want to get elected listen to the voters not your members.

I’m a former Labour activist and I agree with much of what Norcott says about Labour’s contempt for ordinary working class people who hold socially conservative views.

The party will never regain the support of voters in Stoke, Mansfield or Hartlepool by delivering patronising lectures about ‘white privilege’, Palestine or fucking pronouns. Or telling them that their concerns about uncontrolled mass immigration are racist.

Where I differ with him is that I could never vote Tory.

YABU to link to a DM page. Of course it'll be Labour-bashing, because they're a bunch of fascists! No idea who the comedian is either.