Should Britain do the same as Germany with stolen artefacts during colonialist times?

[EerieSilence]

I think every country should follow the suit, Britain, France, etc. It's time to own up to the shame that was stealing artefacts and filling museums with stolen objects they never intended to return in the name of civilisation.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/30/germany-first-to-hand-back-benin-bronzes-looted-by-british

Of course you should yes

Absolutely.

Then our museums would be half empty, plus I think we look after them well

Depends on the definition of stolen. Some artefacts were legitimately acquired I think, i.e. elgin marbles? Could be wrong here. Greece has been asking for them back.

@VeganVeal

Then our museums would be half empty, plus I think we look after them well

Isn’t that so incredibly conceited and condescending?

We’ll keep a hang of these priceless artefacts because you’re too stupid to take care of them.

We would have empty museums (would the queen have to return the Crown Jewels too? Would significantly reduce her trinket collection).

VeganVeal Sound, I'll call around and help myself to what I want of yours. I'll look after it well!!

They should return everything, I'd even go so far as to say they should add a 'late return' fee toboot.

Museums have loads more artefacts than they display. I don't think we have to worry about empty museums.

Also I doubt every country would want everything back... But repatriation of artefacts should be an ultimate goal.

As someone whose heritage lies in a country the empire looted and plundered, I can hand on heart say, the valuables should remain here and not be returned. Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from and I can 99.99% say, if any of the treasures were to be returned (some currently in the possession of the Royal Family), it'd be 'lost' upon its return or sold to a wealthy industrialist in the country never to be seen again.

I think museums should own up to how they came to acquire the treasures on display and have that information next to the items for transparency.

@cerealgamechanger

As someone whose heritage lies in a country the empire looted and plundered, I can hand on heart say, the valuables should remain here and not be returned. Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from and I can 99.99% say, if any of the treasures were to be returned (some currently in the possession of the Royal Family), it'd be 'lost' upon its return or sold to a wealthy industrialist in the country never to be seen again.

Exactly, just as I said above

@cerealgamechanger

As someone whose heritage lies in a country the empire looted and plundered, I can hand on heart say, the valuables should remain here and not be returned. Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from and I can 99.99% say, if any of the treasures were to be returned (some currently in the possession of the Royal Family), it'd be 'lost' upon its return or sold to a wealthy industrialist in the country never to be seen again.

With respect, it's not like that everywhere they were stolen from so that can't be a blanket excuse used to hold onto them all.

Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from

So Britain is the epitome of honesty, integrity and morality?

Should these artifacts be returned?

Only if there is a guarantee that they will not end up in some private collection somewhere or sold off to the highest bidder.

@VladmirsPoutine

Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from

So Britain is the epitome of honesty, integrity and morality?

The UK is eleventh on the CPI list, behind only the usual suspects (Scandinavia, Switzerland, Singapore, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands) so it is one of Tee cleanest countries. Unless you are suggesting that only Denmark can be entrusted with the world's artefacts...

British museums are returning Benin bronzes.
www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2021/04/more-museums-take-steps-to-return-benin-bronzes-to-nigeria/#

Cambridge, Aberdeen, the horniman, Manchester I think....
Generally most of the museum sector feel this is the right thing to do. The uk govt are not supporting returning them, and I don’t think the BM is (yet).

@DdraigGoch I don't care if they are first on the list. They need to return the artefacts. And a cursory glance through the machinations of government would seem to indicate that an arbitrary position on whatever scale doesn't actually mean anything.

Long overdue.

@VladmirsPoutine

Corruption and crime is rife where my parents are from

So Britain is the epitome of honesty, integrity and morality?

I think you might have missed some important shades of grey here! Boris Johnson is not about to put the Elgin marbles in his country home, no. And he’s not about to let them to be blown up by insurgents either (see: Palmyra.) Sadly those types of outcome are highly likely in some of the countries that we’re talking about, rather than the artefacts being used for enjoyment &/ or economic value for the actual people.

Thank you for your view @cerealgamechanger, opinions from people who are actually from the countries we’re talking about always most relevant in debates like these!

as someone actually from one of the countries, yes they should be handed back here.

Ditto as someone who's from a country that was indeed pillaged and raided they should absolutely be given back. Giving the 'balanced debate' treatment to issues such as these is exactly why a lot of people are if not proud of the British empire, actually think it was a force for good.

I love how the attitude is - "yeah we plundered your country and nicked all this stuff, but ya know, we look after it better" like actual wtf to be honest.

Yes some countries still have dodgy systems. My own country in SE Asia certainly. But it's not your stuff tbh, and I can't get over the arrogant discourse of why it should be kept here.

I wonder if there is another solution...UK gives the stuff back, and as this is a rich and powerful country UK can help the country store and preserve it at home where it belongs?

The whole idea of 'well you can come and see it here if you want and we'll charge you for the privilege rather than give it back' isn't something anyone here actually agrees with is it?

Depends on the definition of stolen. Some artefacts were legitimately acquired I think, i.e. elgin marbles? Could be wrong here. Greece has been asking for them back.

Arguable. There are some who say that the man who sold the Elgin marbles had no right to do so.

@thereisonlyoneofme

Depends on the definition of stolen. Some artefacts were legitimately acquired I think, i.e. elgin marbles? Could be wrong here. Greece has been asking for them back.

The Elgin marbles were absolutely not acquired legitimately, they were claimed to be have been give permission but evidence has never been found to prove this (despite similar documents been stored and recovered in some abundance). The Elgin marbles also received some of the worst restoration/preservation treatment of the period and have actually been permanently damaged because of it.

I trained as an archaeologist (BA MSc) and was working as one prior to covid. As an archaeologist this is something that's still very controversial. I've been to many museums, some like the BM and NHM that have artefacts and remains from across the world, some on temporary exhibits and some permanent. I'm still not certain where I stand, as mentioned above thread, there's some places where the past is actively been destroyed and efforts to preserve the sites are having little success due to the dangerous conditions and lack of funding. However, in the majority of cases there are absolutely reasons to return artefacts and remains as the infrastructure and legislation to protect them is there. There's very few good reasons for the Elgin marbles to remains in the UK when they were likely removed without permission and Greece actually wants them back and could tell the complete story rather than omitting the bits that makes Britain look bad.

The UK has some amazing heritage that is unfairly displayed in the big national museums because they can afford the associated costs around them. While there has been efforts to rebalance this (they now have to bid on the entire collection rather than the shiny bits, many also offer to local first) there's still problems with this.

So, I don't know where I stand, I love seeing cultural heritage from across the world when I visit the big museums and it would be a shame to not have the chance to see them in their countries of origin because I couldn't afford to travel but with technological advances and digital collections becoming more common then I can't see why they shouldn't be repatriated. They would fill the space with some amazing British heritage which no one knows much about yet (there's some amazing research going on right now across the UK).