Old job overpaid me by £1,000 aibu not to pay it back?

[redbedgg]

I was in the support group up until the 19th of march on ESA due to mental health (I won't get into details but haven't been well)
I started job the 22nd March.
I wanted a normal life and applied for a job and got it in a large call centre.
I realised it wasn't for me and my mental health wasn't right so after a day I left.
I knew I wasn't well enough.
I couldn't go back on to ESA so had to make a universal credit claim.

I worked 1 day.
At the end of the month I checked my bank and had been paid £1,000 for a full month.
I rang HR straight away and told them what had happened and asked them how I pay it back.
Now any income that is reported to HMRC reduces your UC.
I asked them to do a correction and change my leaving date (as they had put the wrong date )
They said they would.
A month later nothing.
I rang them and they said we have input new details.
They have now input £19 but added that with the date "30th April"and put down my leaving date as the 30th April but haven't corrected my income.

UC have told me my payment this month is £0.00 because of the income showed on HMRC.
I've asked my old employer if I bank transfer this £1,000 will you change my income details or I don't receive a payment.
They've said they can't do it and they aren't telling me what the £19 they've listed is in April.
They've messed everything up.

Aibu to say until you fix your error I'm not paying this £1,000 back.
I have no money for food or rent or bills.
I haven't touched the £1,000
All I want is for them to input the correct details.
Aibu here ?

I asked for someone senior previously and they told me it was payroll I needed to speak too as a higher manager knows nothing about wages etc
Payroll don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
They sent me a p45 (I think )with correct leaving date but the incorrect income.
Yet on my tax account they have my leaving date as April not March.

@PollyPepper

I don't want to keep the money I haven't earned..I

But you've earned Universal credit?

OP clearly has health issues otherwise she would never have been able to claim ESA. It's very possible OP thought they were getting better and able to handle working but upon doing it they actually weren't well enough, so OP is entitled to UC having earned it or not. That's what welfare is there for, to help people who are not currently or are unable to work. Fuck off being goady. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I realise I switched between she/they but you know what I mean.

I’d speak to someone at citizen’s advice about this. While I’m sure you have to pay it back I’m not sure they can demand it in a lump sum I may be wrong hope you get it sorted

I suspect pp has it right that the reason they haven't corrected it properly is because it happened in March and they'd already completed their payroll year end - it is still possible to sort it out, so likely they either don't know how or can't be arsed to do an earlier year update and sort it out properly. I've worked in payroll long enough to know this is very common unfortunately.

Personally, I'd write a letter (and send it recorded) setting out the whole situation including figures, explaining that you are more than willing to repay the overpayment as soon as they fully correct your RTI record in order to restore your correct position in respect of UC. Be clear that their error has resulted in financial detriment to you and that you are unable to repay the overpayment until they take the necessary actions to restore your position, as this would put you in considerable financial hardship as a result of their error.

Then one of a few things will happen... Hopefully, they'll get their arses into gear and sort your record, you'll get your UC and you can pay them back (best case scenario for everyone).

Alternatively, they might decide they still can't be bothered to fix it properly but that they also don't want to get into a massive argument over a grand, so they might write off the overpayment.

Worst case is they continue to pursue you for the overpayment - the final step of that journey (after a lot of letters) would be small claims court, in which case you'd get to present your side to the judge, show them your letter and ask the employer to explain why they didn't take the necessary corrective actions to restore your PAYE record to its correct position in which case you would have paid them back (as you have reasonably stated in your letter). Hopefully, they'd then be told to do what they should have done in the first place, then the UC side still gets fixed and you pay them back. To be honest overpayments very often don't even get as far as small claims, which is why I suspect them writing off the overpayment - even if it takes a while - might be the most likely outcome out of the three scenarios.

There are two issues here: criminal and civil offence.

Criminal:
It is a criminal offence to keep overpaid wages. You did not earn the money, it's not yours and it's illegal for you to keep it. You could be convicted of theft. HOWEVER, if you have reasonably tried to give it back then you've not committed a crime. Using it to barter/bribe/blackmail them does not mean you've reasonably tried to give it back. PP has suggested saying you'll only pay it back when they fix the HMRC issue - that may well make this a criminal offence. Do not do that. Do everything you can reasonably do to give the money back ASAP.

Civil:
If you do not give the money back then, in addition to potential criminal charges, you could be sued by the company to return the money. I assume you had an employment contract with them - how much notice were you supposed to give? I'd assume you violated that notice because it tends to be much longer than one day. So, they could also sue you at the same time for their associated costs (like paying a temporary member of staff or agency staff and for the recruitment costs etc).

In a similar vein, you could attempt to sue them because their negligence appears to have caused you to lose out on UC payments. However, because a) the lack of UC payments is partially due to you breaching your employment contract and b) you have no right to UC payments in the first place, it's unlikely you'll win.

In brief, give the money back and ask as politely and consistently as you can for them to sort out the HMRC issue. Have you spoken to HMRC directly?

All these people saying just give the money back right now, it's theft etc... how is OP meant to survive in the mean time if she does that? OP has made it quite clear she is willing to give the money back but because they won't fix the error with HMRC, she has lost her entitlement to UC for that month. I also find it quite ridiculous to claim that OP is committing bribery and also she could be sued for not giving appropriate notice. What was the alternative? Working herself into the ground and fucking up her mental health even more? And clearly she had the right to UC in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't have accepted her claim The ignorance in some of these comments

do you have a support worker, or employment advisor, anyone whom you can ask to help you with this.
good luck.

@quizqueen you're right. It would be so much better if all those with health problems which mean they can't work were just sleeping rough on the streets.

£800pm is hardly rolling in it ffs!

I assume you had an employment contract with them - how much notice were you supposed to give? I'd assume you violated that notice because it tends to be much longer than one day.

In the job less than a month - no notice required unless the contract says so.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/leaving-a-job/resigning/your-notice-period-when-resigning/

ACAS may be able to help - this page not totally relevant but shows that ACAS do advise on overpayments as well as underpayments
www.acas.org.uk/check-if-your-employer-can-make-deductions-from-your-wages

It could take weeks to get this sorted out. Fact is at the moment you have no money until the end of May. You cannot survive until then. You don't seem to have any choice but to use the money and then arrange with the employer to pay it back later. Its not your fault and the employer's aren't making it any easier for you.

You’ve done nothing wrong here, they need to sort out their payroll and correct the error. This is not blackmail (!), it is exactly what HMRC are telling the company to do. They have now incorrectly recorded your income for the second time, which is not acceptable. It might help to have a pro Bono lawyer or someone from a legal advice clinic intervene on your behalf?

@SonnyWinds if I hadn't of been entitled to universal credit my claim wouldn't have been accepted.
I was /am entitled.
So basically what your saying is ..
My employer can make a error,report my earnings twice incorrectly and I am the one who looses out.

I'm a payroll manager. Yes it's fiddly to change when the error is technically in a previous tax year but they need to do an Earlier Year Update and submit to HMRC to fix this for you.

Sounds like they are just being mega lazy and can't be arsed doing the earlier year correction.

I would offer a minimal repayment plan as their error has cost you money now.

(But also be kind because it's not always the poor guys in payroll who have made the error.... I can't even tell you how many times someone has been overpaid because their line manager didn't realise they needed to complete a leavers form for them...)

@cricketmum84 Thankyou for that info it's really appreciated.
If they don't do this,can I contact HMRC and will they look into this or not?

[quote redbedgg]@cricketmum84 Thankyou for that info it's really appreciated.
If they don't do this,can I contact HMRC and will they look into this or not?[/quote]
Yes they will contact the employer for clarification.

We have had one recently, different situation but their pay had impacted their UC as we had to pay 2 months salary in one month (again late info from line manager 🤦🏼‍♀️). HMRC emailed us, we have an explanation and all was sorted ☺️

@TakeYourFinalPosition

Legally they'll be able to pursue the money back for six years.

Are you left with nothing right now? If so, I'd take the smallest amount of money possible to get by - probably under £100 if I could.

Then I'd keep contacting payroll/HR. They will have to update the information that they gave to HMRC, because it'd be an offence to knowingly submit incorrect information. Are they refusing to do it outright, or refusing to do it now? Some companies are arseholes at changing stuff before the next payroll runs.

Or are they saying that they've now updated the details to say that you were paid £19, not £1000, but that's not enough for HMRC?

What happens if they persue the amount but it gets 'ignored' as a person makes multiple attempts to get proof of the overpayment by calling the number on the letter which is a dead line? After the 6 years does it just get written off?

Asking for a friend

@cricketmum84 Thankyou
I'm hoping the RTI dispute will sort this all out

@Fatladyslim depends on the amount owed but in my experience company's will stop pursuing after a year! It's just not worth the time and money spent on preparing letters, tracking contact, referring to debt agencies etc.

[quote cricketmum84]@Fatladyslim depends on the amount owed but in my experience company's will stop pursuing after a year! It's just not worth the time and money spent on preparing letters, tracking contact, referring to debt agencies etc. [/quote]
Awesome thank you! I apparently had an overpayment from Tesco for about £100 in 2012. I received a couple of letters, each one a year apart. When I called the number on the letter it was a dead line so I thought it might be a scam. I also googled tesco numbers and no one could ever really help me. I then just ignored the letters and have since moved a few times but I often think about it and wonder if they are still pursuing to my old address.

Make sure everything is in writing and no they don’t get their money back until they correct their mistake. Put it in writing the consequences of their mistake and once they have corrected it you will discuss a repayment schedule with them. Your only leverage at present is the overpayment.

@Fatladyslim for £100 in 2012 they have definitely written that off. Stop worrying lol 😂

You are being massively unreasonable. Why should they amend it when you are refusing to return the money. You want, effectively, them to say they gave you £19 (or whatever sum it was) when in reality they paid you a lot more, but you are refusing to return it. Where is their incentive to correct anything when you are holding on to the money anyway?

I do not see that this is an "error" - in actual fact you were incredibly lucky that they got you on to payroll so fast and that you were paid anything. For many employers you would have been waiting for payment until the next payroll date - the end of April - for the part of March that you worked. They were efficient in getting you on payroll, and their reward for that is being blamed for paying you after you walked out after a day.

Will your mental health be improved any when they start sending debt collectors and court demands for the money? Those telling you to spend the money are not the ones who will be dealing with the debt collectors etc.

@Moondust001 I contacted them to tell them about THEIR error!
I contacted them so I could pay the money back.
THEIR error has caused me to loose £800 UC payment.
All they had to do was send the accurate figures to HMRC but they haven't.
Why should I loose out on £800 because they can't do the job they are getting paid for properly.

So I send back the £1,000 and they don't change the submissions to HMRC (as they've told me they can't do)

Then I live on fresh air till the end of may through no fault of my own?

@Moondust001 also they can happily send debt collectors letters and I will explain the situation and pay them 50p a week!